Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

[fernando]

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Yes, ambiguity seems to be a byword when it comes to arms and armour!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

If I am not mistaken, a number of Milanese smiths worked in France, I think near Lyon but cannot recall exactly. Italians often used the Ayala name, much as did the German smiths into later times.

[fernando]

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

[kronckew]

i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel.

i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off.

what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo.

[fernando]

I wouldn't know about the fashion issue, but it was a vital advantage to have a longer reach than your adversary in a duel. There were indeed royal laws limiting the length of swords. King Dom João III, for one, allowed a maximum five and half palms ( some 120 cms.). Longer specimens were then called 'off mark', some of them reaching the seven palms.
Noteworthy the limit prescribed comprehended the whole sword; you could have a normal blade and a longer hilt, which would give the same effect.
One alternative to evade the law was to commission 'extendable' swords; you would go around with a legal weapon and only stretched it for a duel.
As then Monarchs considered themselves above the law, there is no surprise that, in the arms inventory of King Dom Pedro II, inherited from his father Dom João IV, it was listed an item called "sword that grows".

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[kronckew]

key word i think being 'duel', an artificial rules bound form of lethal argument settling as opposed to actual melee battles between disciplined trained soldiers who need a sword capable of working at near and far ranges without getting stuck in an opponent due to over-penetration. military swords of the period were shorter, wider, and sharper, excepting possibly the nobility and officers who tended not to lead from the front. the ultimate rapier form, the smallsword was great for duels, but died out with the 18th century as they were not a good battle sword. the scots taught them that. george washinton i hear had a colchemarde smallsword but he carried a more practical spadroon or hanger in battle tho. doubt he ever used either to actually injure an opponent.

'rapier' is a term we now apply to similar weapons that like 'falcata' was not normally applied to by those who carried them in earnest. it's just a more convenient way of saying "long pointy stabby sword with a fancy loopy wire or cup) hand protector that doesn't cut very well but looks cool".

added:

there is also a practical limit on how long a blade you personally can carry & unsheath (and re-sheath), as well as a weight limit. most rapiers were 1.5 kilos-2kilos at most. much the same as earlier and later swords. you could of course carry a longer one on horseback, like an estoc - basically a backup lance.

found this elsewhere on a sword forum: probably what i was originally thinking of: the english wore rapiers much longer that the fashion in the rest of europe, thus the following.

As far as the Royal Proclamations go, the earliest is 1557, which stated;

“…from henceforth no person or persons, of what estate, or condition so ever he or they be, do use or weare by nyghte or by daye, not sell any sworde or rapier above the length of a yard and a halfe quarter in the blade at the most, not any buckler, with more pykes therein then one, and the same not to be sharpe, or above .ii ynches long, or of a broder syse then hath ben most commonly used within this Realme, nor use or weare any gauntlet, or vambrace, not any other weapon of defence, other than theyr common swordes, rapiers, daggers, and bucklers, according to thauncient usage”

This seems to have been roundly ignored, and on the 6th of May 1562 a further proclamation was made that;

“And where as an usage is crept in, contrary to fromer orders, of wearing of long Swordes, and Rapyers, sharpened in suche sort, as maye appeare the usage of them cannot tende to defence, whiche ought to be the very meanying of weearyng of weapons, in times of peace: but to murther, and evident death, when the same shalbe occupyed. Her Majesties pleasure is, that no man shall after .x dayes next following this Proclomation, weare any Sword, Rapier, or any weapon in theyr steade, passynge the length of one yard & halfe a quarter of blade, at the uttermost: neither any Dagger above the length of .xii inches in blade: neither any Buckler, with a sharpe point, or with any point above two ynches of length”

There does seem to have been serious, if not entirely consistent, efforts to enforce these statutes, and in 1580 Lord Talbot reported that;

“the French Imbasidore, Mounswer Mouiser, ridinge to take the ayer, in his returne came thowrowe Smithfield; and ther, at the bars, was steayed by thos offisers that sitteth to cut sourds, by reason his raper was longer than the statute: He was in a great feaurie, and dreawe his raper; in the meane season my Lord Henry Seamore cam, and so stayed the mattr”.

Given Silver’s comments, by 1599 they seem to have given up trying.

spelling (and grammar) was an individual thing back then - no dictionaries of standardized spellings till the 17th c... spelling tests - another thing we can blame the english for.

(the 'legal limit was thus 40.5 inches of blade)

[fernando]

After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size.
Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel

Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL.
(both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt)

The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions.

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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc.

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!


All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Here is a comparison between a sword within mark and two examples off mark.
Says the author Eduardo Nobre that, while legal swords had five palms total length, these ilegal examples had seven palms of blade alone.
He proceeds saying that indeed their unsheathing and carrying around was rather problematic, besides the difficulty to fence with blades of such length, they managed to keep at distance the most adventurous adversary.

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[fernando]

The fame of ancient Toledan steels was based on the mastership with which some smiths handled its temper, without any technical knowledge nor any instrument able to measure, even remotely, the adequate temperatures for such treatment. The temperature they knew it by the color of burning steel and the time of immersion in the water, by means of prayer, verses or songs allusive to the craft. People in general attributed such quality of steel to the water of the river Tagus, in which swords were tempered.

[fernando]

Santiago de Palomares, author of the famous sword smiths nomina, also commissioned by King Carlos III in 1775 to create the Royal factory of swords in Toledo, left it written that, the steel that they spent in the fabrication of Toledan swords, since its beginning was that of the old factory of Modragon, unique in Spain at the time, celebrated in almost all world as rich and abounding and which swords, after some centuries, prevail today of quality so outstanding that they are appreciated by the major part of world nations for their strength, beauty and the finest temper.

[fernando]

Curious event,
... In which Master Lucas, a Biscayne sword smith resident in Lisbon, having being found with four 'black' swords greater than the mark, was arrested and later released with 100 cruzados bail, from which he ended up being pardoned... not without having to pay 1000 reaes for the Hospital of All Saints.

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