KUDI FROM MADURA / USED IN ATJEH ?

Tatyana Dianova · 3rd June 2015, 07:24 AM

A "kudi tranchang" which has some similar features to Willem's "Kudi", especially the handle decoration. They look like they are from Atjeh - look at the spine decoartion which is pretty close to Atjeh Klewang spine decoration.

Amuk Murugul · 3rd June 2015, 12:21 PM

Hello Willem,

My initial reply was merely to nudge you in a direction for research.
However, I see that you still haven't classified your item yet.
O.K., I'll play the name game.
IMVHO, it is a member of the TJELOERIT family called PELONG. The angle of the blade makes it a TJOELANGONG variant.
Thus, your implement is a c.18thC-19thC Pelong Tjoelangong from Madoera (allowing for differences in spelling/pronunciation/dialect etc.).

That's my final input.
Hope it helps.

mvg.

P.S. This item was a favourite in CAROK (duel) and banned by the Dutch in the mid 19thC; also by the Indos in mid 20thC

asomotif · 4th June 2015, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Thus, your implement is a c.18thC-19thC Pelong Tjoelangong from Madoera (allowing for differences in spelling/pronunciation/dialect etc.).

That's my final input.
Hope it helps.

mvg.

P.S. This item was a favourite in CAROK (duel) and banned by the Dutch in the mid 19thC; also by the Indos in mid 20thC

Thanks Amuk,

Tjeloerit, as in celurit / clurit etc...

I will try to find similar pieces in Museum collections to get some more references.

carok, I will try to find some info about banning by the dutch.
On the web I found only bahasa websites (Wikipedia) and "bloody" pictures.

I can understand that they banned it.

Best regards,
Willem

Ps, there is still some question about the decoration.
So anyone with an opinion, feel free to post.

asomotif · 5th June 2015, 12:31 AM

I found several examples in the RMV Leiden collection under madurese.

The 2nd one named "Tjalok", the other one just "kapmes" (=machette)

asomotif · 5th June 2015, 12:36 AM

Here 2 with more elaborate decorations in the metal ferrule.

A. G. Maisey · 18th June 2015, 12:21 AM

Just a small addition to my post #5, I was feeling a bit off colour when I wrote that post and did not make the effort to clarify something that I should have.

This word "tranchang".

In Javanese and Malay there is no combination of "c+h", the "ch" sound that we know in English is achieved by use of only "c" in these languages, thus "tranchang" should be rendered as "trancang".

In Javanese there is a word "trancang", and this word means "a tray made out of plaited wire" --- this is a very obscure word that only appears in one of my many dictionaries and is unknown to any native speaker of Javanese that I have ever asked.

We also have in Javanese a word: "trantang" which means "having many holes".

It would probably be legitimate to describe the vast bulk of kudis as "kudi trantang", as most kudis do in fact have many holes, however, I have never encountered this usage.

But we cannot describe something that is vaguely kudi-shaped as a "kudi trantang" unless it does have a lot of holes. In short, kudi trantang is a description, it is not a name.

To return to kudi trancang. If a kudi shaped weapon had a wide blade with the grain of the iron clearly showing, it might also be legitimate to describe such a weapon as a "kudi trancang".

In respect of the celurit in Madura. It comes in many forms that can range from pure weapon to a variety of agricultural tools. I've seen displays of this range of forms several times, regrettably I cannot recall any form of Madurese celurit that looks remotely like the item that started this thread. This of course does not mean that the item which started the thread is not a Madurese celurit, but it would seem to indicate that Madurese museum staffs in the late 20th century did not know of this form as Madurese.

3rd June 2015, 07:24 AM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 734	A "kudi tranchang" which has some similar features to Willem's "Kudi", especially the handle decoration. They look like they are from Atjeh - look at the spine decoartion which is pretty close to Atjeh Klewang spine decoration. Attached Images

3rd June 2015, 12:21 PM	#2
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	PELONG MADOERA Hello Willem, My initial reply was merely to nudge you in a direction for research. However, I see that you still haven't classified your item yet. O.K., I'll play the name game. IMVHO, it is a member of the TJELOERIT family called PELONG. The angle of the blade makes it a TJOELANGONG variant. Thus, your implement is a c.18thC-19thC Pelong Tjoelangong from Madoera (allowing for differences in spelling/pronunciation/dialect etc.). That's my final input. Hope it helps. mvg. P.S. This item was a favourite in CAROK (duel) and banned by the Dutch in the mid 19thC; also by the Indos in mid 20thC

5th June 2015, 12:31 AM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	I found several examples in the RMV Leiden collection under madurese. The 2nd one named "Tjalok", the other one just "kapmes" (=machette) Attached Images

5th June 2015, 12:36 AM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Here 2 with more elaborate decorations in the metal ferrule. Attached Images

18th June 2015, 12:21 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Just a small addition to my post #5, I was feeling a bit off colour when I wrote that post and did not make the effort to clarify something that I should have. This word "tranchang". In Javanese and Malay there is no combination of "c+h", the "ch" sound that we know in English is achieved by use of only "c" in these languages, thus "tranchang" should be rendered as "trancang". In Javanese there is a word "trancang", and this word means "a tray made out of plaited wire" --- this is a very obscure word that only appears in one of my many dictionaries and is unknown to any native speaker of Javanese that I have ever asked. We also have in Javanese a word: "trantang" which means "having many holes". It would probably be legitimate to describe the vast bulk of kudis as "kudi trantang", as most kudis do in fact have many holes, however, I have never encountered this usage. But we cannot describe something that is vaguely kudi-shaped as a "kudi trantang" unless it does have a lot of holes. In short, kudi trantang is a description, it is not a name. To return to kudi trancang. If a kudi shaped weapon had a wide blade with the grain of the iron clearly showing, it might also be legitimate to describe such a weapon as a "kudi trancang". In respect of the celurit in Madura. It comes in many forms that can range from pure weapon to a variety of agricultural tools. I've seen displays of this range of forms several times, regrettably I cannot recall any form of Madurese celurit that looks remotely like the item that started this thread. This of course does not mean that the item which started the thread is not a Madurese celurit, but it would seem to indicate that Madurese museum staffs in the late 20th century did not know of this form as Madurese.