Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

Cerjak · 2nd June 2015, 09:28 AM

I would like to thank all of you ( Jim ,Fernando ,Mr ELEY & ulfberth, for your kind contribution on this thread.
I got all the explanation expected on this sword and I'm hope that those informations will be helpful for other collectors.

Cerjak

Norman McCormick · 2nd June 2015, 10:33 PM

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over

Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours

My Regards,
Norman.

Cerjak · 9th June 2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jean-Luc,
A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over

Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours

My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman

Thank you for the picture.
It is only in Museum you could see so nice example and based on this picture I can understand why his name had been popping all over .
Best

Jean-Luc

fernando · 9th June 2015, 08:31 PM

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Norman McCormick · 9th June 2015, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

Yes, ambiguity seems to be a byword when it comes to arms and armour!!!

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2015, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures.
According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala).
... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

If I am not mistaken, a number of Milanese smiths worked in France, I think near Lyon but cannot recall exactly. Italians often used the Ayala name, much as did the German smiths into later times.

fernando · 10th June 2015, 11:20 AM

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

kronckew · 10th June 2015, 03:35 PM

i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel.

i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off.

what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo

.

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2015, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc.

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!

All best regards,
Jim

2nd June 2015, 10:33 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,635	Hi Jean-Luc, A real nice find, 'de Aiala' blades seem to be popping up all over Here's a Tomas de Aiala rapier courtesy of the Wallace Collection, a bit of a different class from ours My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

10th June 2015, 03:35 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	i read somewhere (probably here on the forum) that at the height of the rapier 'age' they reached somewhat ridiculous lengths in civilian circumstances, mostly for fashion as the wearer was not likely to engage in a real duel. i also read that a city where this was happening was so annoyed by the lengths gentlemen were going to, they banned blades over a yard long, and anyone caught with a longer blade on entry thru the gates would have it's excess broken off. what i gather is a typical rapier scabbard (repro) and associated belting and fittings. the carrier at the balance hangs from a hook/eyelet on your left, and has a further strap that hooks to another eyelet on your right. the sword hangs almost horizontally, in balance. i assume the extra strap keeps it at a better angle & from flopping about hitting others & provoking duels. it does NOT go around your butt, but runs forward across your front as in the 2nd photo. Attached Images

2nd June 2015, 09:28 AM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	I would like to thank all of you ( Jim ,Fernando ,Mr ELEY & ulfberth, for your kind contribution on this thread. I got all the explanation expected on this sword and I'm hope that those informations will be helpful for other collectors. Cerjak

9th June 2015, 08:31 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A rather beatiful sword indeed, however giving place to reiterate the dilemma of genuine smith signatures. According to the host of this example, the mark stamped on the ricasso (quote) appears to represent the royal arms of France and not that usualy associated with Tomas de Aiala (or Ayala). ... Resulting that this sword could even be Italian, still according to Wallace specialists.

10th June 2015, 11:20 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.