Trebizond arms with huge amount of corals?

wolviex · 16th December 2005, 01:30 PM

I just figured out another and most popular name for country from where (as I suppose) these weapons come:
TREBIZOND = TRABZON

Radu Transylvanicus · 12th January 2006, 07:28 AM

Very interesting subject indeed, Michal... One comes across them slowly but consistently. What I can add for sure is that such decoration was never popular in regimental version but rather in presentation to high rank officers.
In less ceremonial and more bellicose forms I could definitely tell you that, for sure, they were a lot more popular with the irregulars or brigands of the empire, from pandours and hajdouks to the bash-bouzouks, at least that’s to whom most of the ones that bear proofs of war have been normally attributed to. Most of them date between 17th to 19th centuries, with the peak somewhere in the middle. I believe I eve recall some poetry or folktales talking about a famous Romanian haiduc (hajdouk) from Wallachia that had its famous hand gun fashioned like it.
They were popular ornaments and their usage was not restricted to weapons of course, one would fond them on other ittems like bags, scabbards or belts.
Funny enough I remember my mother had a necklace from her mother, a full string of coralite, which if sectionate well would make perfect cabochon decoration for a weapon. (hmmm.... devilish grin...)
In Western European cultures for example when such decorations were spotted, if I remember correctly, the weapons were known as “a la Turque”, meaning Ottoman style. I very much agree with the europinion that they are true Ottoman influence; what better proof one could ask for but to observe exactly where they come from: the Porte and its sphere of influence and trade. Therefore, you can see them all over it, from the nimchas and Kabhyl muskets of Maghrib and Algeria to swords from Russia, Arnaouti miquelets, Transylvanian and Hungarian palas or Caucasian qamas and I am sure your beloved Poland is no exception.
As a personal observation, pertinent I hope, however, nowhere near being a "rule of thumb" but worth considering is that decoration coralite when from Northen Africa (Maghrib, Algeria & Egypt) tend to be tear shaped, European (from Istanbul to Budapest) tend to be round pea like to ovoid, whilst Middle Eastern (including most of Anatolia) to Caucasus favored ovoid to linear ones... That applies just to the coralite not really to the turquoise and its keen.
Its hard to say how many are from Trabzon or even how many are strictly Turk, I preffer referring to them in a little more broad terms according to the times, it wasn’t much of Trebizond or Turkey, it was the whole empire’s fashion, it was Ottoman but definitely this region deserve its praise on the matter but like anything beautiful and fashionable, it tends to be quickly adopted and then produced somewhere else (ex. Damascus steel, recurved bow, soap opera and noodles)...

erlikhan · 13th January 2006, 02:00 PM

Most of the photos posted above belong to qamas,daggers and swords of semi-nomadicTurcoman origin, starting from Azerbaijan's Caspian sea shore and Northern Iraq to west, well through west-central Turkey,more concentrated in Eastern Turkey. Four of the swords are of Sultan Murad 4 (1630s).The pistoles which look as if covered with huge corals and in fact NOT coralled. The red material is old form of acrylic and I doubt about their Algerian origin very much. Once one of them was auctioned in an auction house here, and an Iranian dealer explained me it was Iran originated style, once widely used and still known method of coral or turquoise looking acrylic, even offered me to enter the auction and to win that pistol,so that he would take it to Iran, and make it copied exactly in numbers like 20-30 to sell abroad

Coralled and turquoised daggers were existing in village houses traditionally in western-central Turkey till 1960's, in miniaturized and simplyfied forms, red glasses started to be used instead of corals in 20th century. I have such miniature samples but still old,with real corals and will post their pictures when I find time.
regards

Radu Transylvanicus · 13th January 2006, 10:11 PM

No pun intended but is a little hard to draw the conclusion that they are mostly acrylic coral imitation, specially with high official presentation weapons, high rank officers or even sultans, furthermore when in many cases we refer to years 1600s... Later examples I wouldn’t doubt, just like bakelite and vulcanite embedded hilts past 19th century in Europe or "a la European" fashion including Ottoman...
Arabians claim the same about red coral; see even today the Oman jewelry, I personally own one, of silver aliage and red coralite beads...
The so-called "fire coral" is was most soughtafter coralite, which needed no dying. Most examples are from Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan.
We also have to make the clear distinction between coralites and carnelian, the later was easily mistaken due to its resemblance, it comes not from a living creature but rather a gem, a crystal like chalcedony. Funny enough the word chalcedony comes from the name of a Greek town in Asia Minor (Wikipedia).
The carnelian was used on large scale for same purposes and its frequently seen yataghan hilt mounted on silver and ivory.

erlikhan · 13th January 2006, 10:45 PM

I attach the pictures of the ones which especially look exactly like the one I had seen in the auction, and had chance to examine very closely. None of the red pieces looked like coral, and none had common coral age wear which show itself by little holes and color change. Color was too homogenous and fresh red. Corals can fade from none to less or more,partially or completely to pink, even through yellow-light brown by age and its shape deform, less or more shrinkage and minor holes. Some of the pistols like the ones with small pieces can have real corals but especially the ones I attach must not be coral or some other organic remnants. Of course, acrylic is the term which others told me, the definition can be wrong and something different perhaps. I would appreciate if there is any other suggestion. It can be true that they were used by nobles, even in Topkapi palace museum there is one exactly the same with these ones, but its red decoration doesnt look like real coral as well. I think, to carve and shape corals in so big and curving fragments without damaging it was very hard or impossible, and no way left else than to imitate it, if someone loved coral decoration so much and wished to have such an item. Like gold imitation gilding on cheap copper to serve sultans instead of using real solid gold to produce items.

erlikhan · 13th January 2006, 11:03 PM

And this is the one which I examined in the auction and can bet are not real corals at all, but something chemical. It was introduced as "Ottoman pistol with corals"!

dennee · 13th January 2006, 11:59 PM

The question about why the common teardrop or elongated shape is an interesting one. Confessing that I don't know the answer, I'll suggest a couple of possibilities that might apply. First, in terms of creating decorative patterns, there may be more flexibility using something that is elongated, i.e., narrower and more linear than a disk or cabochon of coral might be.

In addition, if one considers how to get the most decorative pieces out of a branch of red coral and eliminate the hole which occurs in the center of the stalk (which appears on Tibetan weapons, for instance, but is often obscured by a pin through it), the way to do it might be to cut cross sections of the stalk creating disks and then to halve the resulting disks and work them (an depending on the diameter of the coral and the desired size of the pieces, one might be able to make more than two pieces, with the "top" of the resulting stone being along the circumference of the disk and the bottom, as applied to the weapon being a "chord" within the circle of the disk). Moving from the center of the disk edge, one could polish down the stone so that its surface curves toward the edges where the disk was cut. Thus could the "hole" be removed and pieces could be created with a significant but minimal arc, possibly saving material while not having the pieces either flat or bulging too greatly. This would not necessarily argue for why a teardrop instead of an ellipse or the shape of a joinery biscuit (i.e., an ellipse with pointed ends--geometry mavens, help me out).

And, if one simply wanted round pieces, one could presumably cut the stalk lengthwise and then shape the sides into round pieces, but with a loss of perhaps more material where the circles would intersect along the length.

But I guess we'd have to ask someone who works coral for applied decoration (as opposed to beads) for a definitive answer.

12th January 2006, 07:28 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Later is better than never Very interesting subject indeed, Michal... One comes across them slowly but consistently. What I can add for sure is that such decoration was never popular in regimental version but rather in presentation to high rank officers. In less ceremonial and more bellicose forms I could definitely tell you that, for sure, they were a lot more popular with the irregulars or brigands of the empire, from pandours and hajdouks to the bash-bouzouks, at least that’s to whom most of the ones that bear proofs of war have been normally attributed to. Most of them date between 17th to 19th centuries, with the peak somewhere in the middle. I believe I eve recall some poetry or folktales talking about a famous Romanian haiduc (hajdouk) from Wallachia that had its famous hand gun fashioned like it. They were popular ornaments and their usage was not restricted to weapons of course, one would fond them on other ittems like bags, scabbards or belts. Funny enough I remember my mother had a necklace from her mother, a full string of coralite, which if sectionate well would make perfect cabochon decoration for a weapon. (hmmm.... devilish grin...) In Western European cultures for example when such decorations were spotted, if I remember correctly, the weapons were known as “a la Turque”, meaning Ottoman style. I very much agree with the europinion that they are true Ottoman influence; what better proof one could ask for but to observe exactly where they come from: the Porte and its sphere of influence and trade. Therefore, you can see them all over it, from the nimchas and Kabhyl muskets of Maghrib and Algeria to swords from Russia, Arnaouti miquelets, Transylvanian and Hungarian palas or Caucasian qamas and I am sure your beloved Poland is no exception. As a personal observation, pertinent I hope, however, nowhere near being a "rule of thumb" but worth considering is that decoration coralite when from Northen Africa (Maghrib, Algeria & Egypt) tend to be tear shaped, European (from Istanbul to Budapest) tend to be round pea like to ovoid, whilst Middle Eastern (including most of Anatolia) to Caucasus favored ovoid to linear ones... That applies just to the coralite not really to the turquoise and its keen. Its hard to say how many are from Trabzon or even how many are strictly Turk, I preffer referring to them in a little more broad terms according to the times, it wasn’t much of Trebizond or Turkey, it was the whole empire’s fashion, it was Ottoman but definitely this region deserve its praise on the matter but like anything beautiful and fashionable, it tends to be quickly adopted and then produced somewhere else (ex. Damascus steel, recurved bow, soap opera and noodles)... Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 12th January 2006 at 08:54 AM.

13th January 2006, 02:00 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Most of the photos posted above belong to qamas,daggers and swords of semi-nomadicTurcoman origin, starting from Azerbaijan's Caspian sea shore and Northern Iraq to west, well through west-central Turkey,more concentrated in Eastern Turkey. Four of the swords are of Sultan Murad 4 (1630s).The pistoles which look as if covered with huge corals and in fact NOT coralled. The red material is old form of acrylic and I doubt about their Algerian origin very much. Once one of them was auctioned in an auction house here, and an Iranian dealer explained me it was Iran originated style, once widely used and still known method of coral or turquoise looking acrylic, even offered me to enter the auction and to win that pistol,so that he would take it to Iran, and make it copied exactly in numbers like 20-30 to sell abroad Coralled and turquoised daggers were existing in village houses traditionally in western-central Turkey till 1960's, in miniaturized and simplyfied forms, red glasses started to be used instead of corals in 20th century. I have such miniature samples but still old,with real corals and will post their pictures when I find time. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 13th January 2006 at 03:14 PM.

13th January 2006, 10:11 PM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	No pun intended but is a little hard to draw the conclusion that they are mostly acrylic coral imitation, specially with high official presentation weapons, high rank officers or even sultans, furthermore when in many cases we refer to years 1600s... Later examples I wouldn’t doubt, just like bakelite and vulcanite embedded hilts past 19th century in Europe or "a la European" fashion including Ottoman... Arabians claim the same about red coral; see even today the Oman jewelry, I personally own one, of silver aliage and red coralite beads... The so-called "fire coral" is was most soughtafter coralite, which needed no dying. Most examples are from Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan. We also have to make the clear distinction between coralites and carnelian, the later was easily mistaken due to its resemblance, it comes not from a living creature but rather a gem, a crystal like chalcedony. Funny enough the word chalcedony comes from the name of a Greek town in Asia Minor (Wikipedia). The carnelian was used on large scale for same purposes and its frequently seen yataghan hilt mounted on silver and ivory. Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 13th January 2006 at 10:28 PM.

13th January 2006, 10:45 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I attach the pictures of the ones which especially look exactly like the one I had seen in the auction, and had chance to examine very closely. None of the red pieces looked like coral, and none had common coral age wear which show itself by little holes and color change. Color was too homogenous and fresh red. Corals can fade from none to less or more,partially or completely to pink, even through yellow-light brown by age and its shape deform, less or more shrinkage and minor holes. Some of the pistols like the ones with small pieces can have real corals but especially the ones I attach must not be coral or some other organic remnants. Of course, acrylic is the term which others told me, the definition can be wrong and something different perhaps. I would appreciate if there is any other suggestion. It can be true that they were used by nobles, even in Topkapi palace museum there is one exactly the same with these ones, but its red decoration doesnt look like real coral as well. I think, to carve and shape corals in so big and curving fragments without damaging it was very hard or impossible, and no way left else than to imitate it, if someone loved coral decoration so much and wished to have such an item. Like gold imitation gilding on cheap copper to serve sultans instead of using real solid gold to produce items. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 13th January 2006 at 11:53 PM.

13th January 2006, 11:03 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	And this is the one which I examined in the auction and can bet are not real corals at all, but something chemical. It was introduced as "Ottoman pistol with corals"! Attached Images

16th December 2005, 01:30 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I just figured out another and most popular name for country from where (as I suppose) these weapons come: TREBIZOND = TRABZON

13th January 2006, 11:59 PM	#7
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Shape The question about why the common teardrop or elongated shape is an interesting one. Confessing that I don't know the answer, I'll suggest a couple of possibilities that might apply. First, in terms of creating decorative patterns, there may be more flexibility using something that is elongated, i.e., narrower and more linear than a disk or cabochon of coral might be. In addition, if one considers how to get the most decorative pieces out of a branch of red coral and eliminate the hole which occurs in the center of the stalk (which appears on Tibetan weapons, for instance, but is often obscured by a pin through it), the way to do it might be to cut cross sections of the stalk creating disks and then to halve the resulting disks and work them (an depending on the diameter of the coral and the desired size of the pieces, one might be able to make more than two pieces, with the "top" of the resulting stone being along the circumference of the disk and the bottom, as applied to the weapon being a "chord" within the circle of the disk). Moving from the center of the disk edge, one could polish down the stone so that its surface curves toward the edges where the disk was cut. Thus could the "hole" be removed and pieces could be created with a significant but minimal arc, possibly saving material while not having the pieces either flat or bulging too greatly. This would not necessarily argue for why a teardrop instead of an ellipse or the shape of a joinery biscuit (i.e., an ellipse with pointed ends--geometry mavens, help me out). And, if one simply wanted round pieces, one could presumably cut the stalk lengthwise and then shape the sides into round pieces, but with a loss of perhaps more material where the circles would intersect along the length. But I guess we'd have to ask someone who works coral for applied decoration (as opposed to beads) for a definitive answer.