Kris/Kalis with straight blade

Battara · 22nd May 2015, 02:54 AM

Actually there are many Maguindanao (and even some some Maranao) kris that have Baka-Baka clamps with connection straps on the outside of the hilts instead of the inside.

Battara · 22nd May 2015, 02:57 AM

I also wonder if the Ganga is made of a different steel or perhaps a different metal altogether.

I also suspect that the scabbard bands that are not plain are more recent replacements (along with the leather wrap).

Rick · 22nd May 2015, 03:47 AM

Maybe try wire; can you get silver ?
This pattern would look good with twine lacquered too .
Ashley's Book of Knots maybe ?

kronckew · 22nd May 2015, 04:03 PM

it arrived a n hour or so ago. the brass bands slid off fairly easily. odd - they had a layer of newspaper under them - i guess to tighten them a bit. the odd turks head band is not leather, it's rattan. kris weighs 668 grams w/o the scabbard. feels very good in the hand. well balance and not tip heavy.

the pommel piece was dangling loosely by a thread of leather, so i replaced it with a bit of twisted silver wire. it is silver plated brass sheet metal.

the baca baca are firmly attached to the hilt, which is firmly attached to the blade. the baca baca are a bit loose on the blade and can move towards the centre a bit if i press on the sides along the bolster. might fix that when i re-wrap.

the ganja is definitely different metal. the blade is by comparison grey and the ganja looks quite like silver in comparison. it was a bit grungy so i cleaned it with a rag & some soap & hot water, rinsed, dried. the baca-baca also looks like they are silver. some hammer dent marks where the baca were fitted to the ganja do not expose any base metal, so they are not plated.

- newsflash. they are NOT aluminum and neither is the ganja, which has some black tarnish. i think they are in fact silver. the ganja and the baca are not magnetic!

took pics attached, oiled it.

cleaned & oiled the wood scabbard & added a trio of quick temp. turks heads in black cord to tide me over till i can organise a brass band or three. may add a fourth in a few min. nearer the end than the old one. took some pics with my mobile phone. and added that last band below the old rattan one. i can see what looks like a 'hamon around the edges of the blade which is slightly darker in the middle. there appears to be a small forging flaw on one side.

edited:
STOP THE PRESSES! - did a chemical test on the baca baca and the ganja - they are SILVER!

kronckew · 22nd May 2015, 06:17 PM

did a forum search, seems batarra had a kris with a silver ganja, and spunjer stated he'd likely never see one again! well...

here you go.

Spunjer · 25th May 2015, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

did a forum search, seems batarra had a kris with a silver ganja, and spunjer stated he'd likely never see one again! well...

here you go.

thanks for posting this, kronckew! very rare piece, indeed. i believe there was another member here that has the similar type other than Jose. Kino?

kronckew · 31st May 2015, 04:00 PM

decided not to go with brass bands for now. (can't find my soldering kit

)

found a quick source for rattan tho.

got lazy & just did a straight whipping wrap. photo from just after wrapping as it dries. will oil it after it dries.

next on the menu is the grip. inshallah bukrah.

kino · 8th June 2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

thanks for posting this, kronckew! very rare piece, indeed. i believe there was another member here that has the similar type other than Jose. Kino?

I just saw this. Amazing memory Spunjer.
Here is the thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=Kris

Kronckew - if you haven't progressed any further on the decision of wrapping the hilt, perhaps some braided rattan gaucho knots.

I did this one with gaucho knots and a Spanish ring knot.

David · 22nd May 2015, 06:23 PM

Wayne, i can only speak for myself, of course, but i certainly wasn't implying that just because some of these renovations may have been done outside the Philippines that you should have to now change them. Personally i probably would have left the bands on the sheath alone (well, maybe not the crimped one

), but unless i thought i could really improve the look of the thing i would probably leave it alone. I personally wasn't pointing out the renovations as a "bad" thing, just trying to establish what was what in that process.
I suspected the possibility of the silver gangya (and asang-asang). I have seen this before, but can't recall where. Congrats on that, a good score. I seriously doubt this was a Western renovation, though it may not have been the original.
On the pommel band, i think you might want to push that more towards the pommels that the top of the leather wrap is covered.

kronckew · 22nd May 2015, 06:33 PM

the main crinkled scabbard band had to go, it was almost professionally crinkled/scalloped. the other one was also crinkled. looks like whoever did it used a needle nosed pliers to bend/fan it it may be salvageable. the other circumferentially grooved one just looked odd with the others gone. i almost left it. i'll make ome plain brass ones & reuse the grooved one. gives me something to do

i figured out the pommel piece needed to be back further after the photos. i've reposition it.

will finalise it when i re-wrap.

i want to do the minimal amt. to the hilt, will likely leave the clamps as they are. they are NOT soldered by the way. the grip strip pieces are bent at the bolster end into an L shape and the end inserted between the baca baca and the ganja, flush with it and not protruding beyond the baca.

will decide more when the leather comes off. Primum non nocere.

kai · 22nd May 2015, 06:29 PM

Hello Wayne,

Quote:

the pommel piece was dangling loosely by a thread of leather, so i replaced it with a bit of twisted silver wire. it is silver plated brass sheet metal.

I believe this needs to close a bit more (after removing the leather).

Quote:

the baca baca are firmly attached to the hilt, which is firmly attached to the blade. the baca baca are a bit loose on the blade and can move towards the centre a bit if i press on the sides along the bolster. might fix that when i re-wrap.

Some play of the clamps is not unusual - no need to go at great lengths unless you plan to hit a lot of tough objects with the sword...

Quote:

the ganja is definitely different metal. the blade is by comparison grey and the ganja looks quite like silver in comparison. it was a bit grungy so i cleaned it with a rag & some soap & hot water, rinsed, dried.

Real silver is a great catch! I have seen a very few kris with a non-iron gangya like this that appeared to be made from brass. One more made from silver; and one suassa?

Quote:

the baca-baca also looks like they are silver. some hammer dent marks where the baca were fitted to the ganja do not expose any base metal, so they are not plated.

Are the strips soldered to the clamps? If so, I'd posit this attachment mode to be fairly recent (and non-traditional) - probably being done when doing that leather wrap.

Please post close-ups when you disassemble the hilt! (I'd suggest to cut those strips and replace them with thinner silver bands which could probably run inside of the ferrule. IMHO this would look much neater.)

Regards,
Kai

kai · 22nd May 2015, 06:37 PM

Hello Wayne & Rick,

Quote:

Maybe try wire; can you get silver ?
This pattern would look good with twine lacquered too .
Ashley's Book of Knots maybe ?

A good silver wire wrap is not that easy to do; I'd prefer braided twine (try to get a grip on the typical Moro braiding) and cover it with cutler's resin when finished. (Easier to do and should also look better between those 2 silver bands.)

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 23rd May 2015, 03:12 AM

Actually Kai some baca- baca were soldered to the strips on Magindanao pieces.

I agree with taking some of those bands off, like the scalloped one. And yes I have a kris once belonging to Datu Piang that has a solid silver Proposal: would it be helpful to get the letter on hospital letter head and FedEx'd to the place?Ganga.

DaveS · 23rd May 2015, 05:34 AM

In my collection somewhere i have an old twist-core that has a copper gangya. In general though i think blades with a different type of metal in the gangya have to be fairly rare........Dave.

Battara · 24th May 2015, 01:43 PM

Yes Dave. So far as I can tell they are fairly rare.

22nd May 2015, 03:47 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Maybe try wire; can you get silver ? This pattern would look good with twine lacquered too . Ashley's Book of Knots maybe ? Attached Images

22nd May 2015, 04:03 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	it arrived a n hour or so ago. the brass bands slid off fairly easily. odd - they had a layer of newspaper under them - i guess to tighten them a bit. the odd turks head band is not leather, it's rattan. kris weighs 668 grams w/o the scabbard. feels very good in the hand. well balance and not tip heavy. the pommel piece was dangling loosely by a thread of leather, so i replaced it with a bit of twisted silver wire. it is silver plated brass sheet metal. the baca baca are firmly attached to the hilt, which is firmly attached to the blade. the baca baca are a bit loose on the blade and can move towards the centre a bit if i press on the sides along the bolster. might fix that when i re-wrap. the ganja is definitely different metal. the blade is by comparison grey and the ganja looks quite like silver in comparison. it was a bit grungy so i cleaned it with a rag & some soap & hot water, rinsed, dried. the baca-baca also looks like they are silver. some hammer dent marks where the baca were fitted to the ganja do not expose any base metal, so they are not plated. - newsflash. they are NOT aluminum and neither is the ganja, which has some black tarnish. i think they are in fact silver. the ganja and the baca are not magnetic! took pics attached, oiled it. cleaned & oiled the wood scabbard & added a trio of quick temp. turks heads in black cord to tide me over till i can organise a brass band or three. may add a fourth in a few min. nearer the end than the old one. took some pics with my mobile phone. and added that last band below the old rattan one. i can see what looks like a 'hamon around the edges of the blade which is slightly darker in the middle. there appears to be a small forging flaw on one side. edited: STOP THE PRESSES! - did a chemical test on the baca baca and the ganja - they are SILVER! Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd May 2015 at 05:27 PM.

31st May 2015, 04:00 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	decided not to go with brass bands for now. (can't find my soldering kit ) found a quick source for rattan tho. got lazy & just did a straight whipping wrap. photo from just after wrapping as it dries. will oil it after it dries. next on the menu is the grip. inshallah bukrah. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 1st June 2015 at 06:48 AM.

22nd May 2015, 06:33 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the main crinkled scabbard band had to go, it was almost professionally crinkled/scalloped. the other one was also crinkled. looks like whoever did it used a needle nosed pliers to bend/fan it it may be salvageable. the other circumferentially grooved one just looked odd with the others gone. i almost left it. i'll make ome plain brass ones & reuse the grooved one. gives me something to do i figured out the pommel piece needed to be back further after the photos. i've reposition it. will finalise it when i re-wrap. i want to do the minimal amt. to the hilt, will likely leave the clamps as they are. they are NOT soldered by the way. the grip strip pieces are bent at the bolster end into an L shape and the end inserted between the baca baca and the ganja, flush with it and not protruding beyond the baca. will decide more when the leather comes off. Primum non nocere. Last edited by kronckew; 22nd May 2015 at 06:55 PM.

22nd May 2015, 02:54 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Actually there are many Maguindanao (and even some some Maranao) kris that have Baka-Baka clamps with connection straps on the outside of the hilts instead of the inside.

22nd May 2015, 02:57 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I also wonder if the Ganga is made of a different steel or perhaps a different metal altogether. I also suspect that the scabbard bands that are not plain are more recent replacements (along with the leather wrap).

22nd May 2015, 06:17 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	did a forum search, seems batarra had a kris with a silver ganja, and spunjer stated he'd likely never see one again! well... here you go.

22nd May 2015, 06:23 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Wayne, i can only speak for myself, of course, but i certainly wasn't implying that just because some of these renovations may have been done outside the Philippines that you should have to now change them. Personally i probably would have left the bands on the sheath alone (well, maybe not the crimped one ), but unless i thought i could really improve the look of the thing i would probably leave it alone. I personally wasn't pointing out the renovations as a "bad" thing, just trying to establish what was what in that process. I suspected the possibility of the silver gangya (and asang-asang). I have seen this before, but can't recall where. Congrats on that, a good score. I seriously doubt this was a Western renovation, though it may not have been the original. On the pommel band, i think you might want to push that more towards the pommels that the top of the leather wrap is covered.

23rd May 2015, 03:12 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Actually Kai some baca- baca were soldered to the strips on Magindanao pieces. I agree with taking some of those bands off, like the scalloped one. And yes I have a kris once belonging to Datu Piang that has a solid silver Proposal: would it be helpful to get the letter on hospital letter head and FedEx'd to the place?Ganga.

23rd May 2015, 05:34 AM	#14
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	In my collection somewhere i have an old twist-core that has a copper gangya. In general though i think blades with a different type of metal in the gangya have to be fairly rare........Dave.

24th May 2015, 01:43 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Yes Dave. So far as I can tell they are fairly rare.