Kris/Kalis with straight blade

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 03:54 PM

i thought the ganja was NOT connected & they were seperate pieces just held together in a press fit, the baca-bacas holding everything together.

from frederico's moro swords site:
=====================
Again, like their Malay cousin the antique Moro kris blade consisted of two parts, that of the blade proper and the seperate gangya (guard). On Kris made before the late 19th century this seperate gangya was evident by a straight line parallel to the guard, however at some point in the late 19th century the line went to a sharp angle when nearing the outer end of the guard. After the 1930s the seperate gangya dissappeared and the blades were made in one piece. On some modern kris there is an engraved line to symbolize the gangya but on many there is no de-marcation of any kind.
...
Now the blade was ready to be merged with the handle. Some have thought that the baca-baca (clamps) served to secure the blade to the handle. While partially true in the sense that they do give support, the primary purpose of the baca-baca was to insure the mating of the ganya and the blade. It is possible that this was important as to make sure that the Jen (spirit) that inhabited the blade and gave it its superior abilities would not escape. The primary means of securing the blade to the handle was through natural resin.
===================

...and thus the ganja could be just about any metal. as noted earlier it does match the rest of the blade and is finely fitted, the patina is quite different tho. maybe it was cleaned differently when the hilt was refitted and re-wrapped?

Rick · 20th May 2015, 04:01 PM

Yes, they are seperate pieces .

Except when they're not; sometimes it is just a scribed line of demarcation .
A really well fitted ganja may be very hard to spot .

I have a feeling the kris under discussion was refurbished outside of its native culture .
Example of the stirrup strap running under the ferrule .

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 04:15 PM

on a technical engineering note, bonding dissimilar metals is an art. many of the newer USCG cutter classes (now getting a bit long in the tooth) started off with steel decks and hulls with aluminum superstuctures to save weight & add to stability. they were joined at the main deck with a lap joint with a synthetic rubber gasket, all bolted together. this made a perfect galvanic cell & the join rotted out very quickly. they discovered a trick to join them. explosive welding. they made a joint of steel on one side, aluminum on the other by exploding them together. the sides away from the joint could then be welded with normal steel and aluminum welding techiniques. the bond was so intimate it did not set up a galvanic cell.

japanese smiths have been hammer welding dissimilar metals in layers for artistic weapons fittings for centuries. the hammering taking the place of explosives.

David · 20th May 2015, 04:45 PM

From what i can see this is most probably an old kris that was refurbished outside of the culture. As Rick has pointed out, the stirrup straps should run under the ferrule and i don't think i have ever seen such thickness in the straps as these. Rick also mentions the leather wrap which i have never seen used on these weapons. The hilt, the ferrule and the band near the pommel all look original, but it looks like someone had them off, fixed up and re-attached. The bands on the sheath look new and not in a Moro style.
As for the gangya, yes Wayne, it is separate, but traditionally the gangya is made from the same billet that the blade is formed from so it is rather unusual for it to be made of a different metal mix. I don't think this is just a matter of more aggressive cleaning on the gangya, this looks like a different metal mix. Given the over all refurbishing of the rest of this piece i think it is likely that this is a later replacement for a missing or broken gangya.

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 05:10 PM

hi rick,

a few over the bolster baca-baca from past forum posts here:

i would think if you are rerplacing them, it'd be easier to install new baca-baca this way rather than disassembling and possibly breaking a grip assembly that is resined in.

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 05:27 PM

looking thru the old stuff here, found the attached sundangs with an asang/baca that is not attached to the grip at all, strengthening frederico's assertion they are there to hold the ganja onto the blade and not the blade to the grip.

kronckew · 20th May 2015, 05:53 PM

'nother grip with the baca/asang outside the wrap. from off-forum. found another on the malay world ref. site we list.

if feasible, i may re-wrap the grip with some black braided cord i have to replace the leather. those shiny brass scabbard bands look out of place too.

would someone trying to heat the tang to melt the resin possibly discolour the ganja a bit?

David · 21st May 2015, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

looking thru the old stuff here, found the attached sundangs with an asang/baca that is not attached to the grip at all, strengthening frederico's assertion they are there to hold the ganja onto the blade and not the blade to the grip.

Wayne, these blades that you have posted on this post are NOT Moro blades. They are modern creations out of Jawa that mimic the Moro (i am not sure i would even call them Indonesian sundangs. They are more like modern repos in my estimate). The reason the asang-asang do not attach to the hilt in these cases is either because they didn't know any better when they were producing these or they found it too much trouble or too difficult to do it the right way. The asang-asang is most definitely intended to hold the hilt to the blade.
You have certain have made you case for asang-asang that travel over the ferrule on traditional Moro blades. However, do note that in each of the examples you posted the strap is fairly flush with the ferrule. On your example this is not the case so i would still stand by my suggestion that this was probably done outside the culture by a non-Moro, especially when you consider the out of place leather wrap. I believe your parts are mostly genuine (hilt, pommel band, ferrule, blade, sheath), but that the refurbishing was done somewhere else in a somewhat untraditional manner.

Roland_M · 21st May 2015, 01:29 PM

I understand, i thought, the stirrups are to weak to hold the blade and made just for decoration. Some kalis swords with separate gangya have only one stirrup and i am quite sure, this is not enough to hold the blade safely in combat.

20th May 2015, 04:01 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Yes, they are seperate pieces . Except when they're not; sometimes it is just a scribed line of demarcation . A really well fitted ganja may be very hard to spot . I have a feeling the kris under discussion was refurbished outside of its native culture . Example of the stirrup strap running under the ferrule . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 20th May 2015 at 04:23 PM.

20th May 2015, 05:10 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	hi rick, a few over the bolster baca-baca from past forum posts here: i would think if you are rerplacing them, it'd be easier to install new baca-baca this way rather than disassembling and possibly breaking a grip assembly that is resined in. Attached Images

20th May 2015, 05:27 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	looking thru the old stuff here, found the attached sundangs with an asang/baca that is not attached to the grip at all, strengthening frederico's assertion they are there to hold the ganja onto the blade and not the blade to the grip. Attached Images

20th May 2015, 05:53 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	'nother grip with the baca/asang outside the wrap. from off-forum. found another on the malay world ref. site we list. if feasible, i may re-wrap the grip with some black braided cord i have to replace the leather. those shiny brass scabbard bands look out of place too. would someone trying to heat the tang to melt the resin possibly discolour the ganja a bit? Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 20th May 2015 at 11:18 PM.

20th May 2015, 03:54 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	i thought the ganja was NOT connected & they were seperate pieces just held together in a press fit, the baca-bacas holding everything together. from frederico's moro swords site: ===================== Again, like their Malay cousin the antique Moro kris blade consisted of two parts, that of the blade proper and the seperate gangya (guard). On Kris made before the late 19th century this seperate gangya was evident by a straight line parallel to the guard, however at some point in the late 19th century the line went to a sharp angle when nearing the outer end of the guard. After the 1930s the seperate gangya dissappeared and the blades were made in one piece. On some modern kris there is an engraved line to symbolize the gangya but on many there is no de-marcation of any kind. ... Now the blade was ready to be merged with the handle. Some have thought that the baca-baca (clamps) served to secure the blade to the handle. While partially true in the sense that they do give support, the primary purpose of the baca-baca was to insure the mating of the ganya and the blade. It is possible that this was important as to make sure that the Jen (spirit) that inhabited the blade and gave it its superior abilities would not escape. The primary means of securing the blade to the handle was through natural resin. =================== ...and thus the ganja could be just about any metal. as noted earlier it does match the rest of the blade and is finely fitted, the patina is quite different tho. maybe it was cleaned differently when the hilt was refitted and re-wrapped?

20th May 2015, 04:15 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	on a technical engineering note, bonding dissimilar metals is an art. many of the newer USCG cutter classes (now getting a bit long in the tooth) started off with steel decks and hulls with aluminum superstuctures to save weight & add to stability. they were joined at the main deck with a lap joint with a synthetic rubber gasket, all bolted together. this made a perfect galvanic cell & the join rotted out very quickly. they discovered a trick to join them. explosive welding. they made a joint of steel on one side, aluminum on the other by exploding them together. the sides away from the joint could then be welded with normal steel and aluminum welding techiniques. the bond was so intimate it did not set up a galvanic cell. japanese smiths have been hammer welding dissimilar metals in layers for artistic weapons fittings for centuries. the hammering taking the place of explosives.

20th May 2015, 04:45 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	From what i can see this is most probably an old kris that was refurbished outside of the culture. As Rick has pointed out, the stirrup straps should run under the ferrule and i don't think i have ever seen such thickness in the straps as these. Rick also mentions the leather wrap which i have never seen used on these weapons. The hilt, the ferrule and the band near the pommel all look original, but it looks like someone had them off, fixed up and re-attached. The bands on the sheath look new and not in a Moro style. As for the gangya, yes Wayne, it is separate, but traditionally the gangya is made from the same billet that the blade is formed from so it is rather unusual for it to be made of a different metal mix. I don't think this is just a matter of more aggressive cleaning on the gangya, this looks like a different metal mix. Given the over all refurbishing of the rest of this piece i think it is likely that this is a later replacement for a missing or broken gangya.

21st May 2015, 01:29 PM	#9
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	I understand, i thought, the stirrups are to weak to hold the blade and made just for decoration. Some kalis swords with separate gangya have only one stirrup and i am quite sure, this is not enough to hold the blade safely in combat.