Tomas De Aiala sword blade.

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2015, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted he was around until the time of the Perez blades, so it certainly seems plausible it could actually be the general period.....the only concerns for me would be the nature of the tang/blade which does not correspond to the blades of period rapiers if I am correct.

Jim

Hi Jim,
Can you expand on the tang/blade thing a little more?
Kind Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 13th May 2015, 12:25 AM

Some thoughts on a composite!!!!

Search/ triggers new broom, the ship of theseus on youtube

Jim McDougall · 13th May 2015, 02:24 AM

I'm really bad at finding pics etc. but what I mean is that on rapiers it seems the guard of course is at the base of the blade, and the ricasso extends to the bottom of the grip. In other words there is a section where the fingers extend past the grip and around the block section. With the cuphilt for example, the cup is at the blades end, and inside there are pas d'ane rings adjacent to the ricasso......then the grip starts beyond that.

In this type of tang, the grip is right at the blade base, there is no ricasso to be visible inside the cup or guard.
Fernando can explain this better

The symbol you show here is the cross and orb, while somewhat related to the 'anchors' in having cross symbolism, is not what I mean by the symbol on your blade.
The cross and orb relate mostly to German blades, and though often suggested 'makers marks' are usually used in conjunction with various names, invocations or other inscriptions on blades. This is very much like the way the 'anchors' were used on Spanish blades, and used in Solingen with other spuriously used punzones, names and phrases.

On the Aiala name, just an observation as the name is spelled differently on various occasions so interjection of the 'de' might be correct. Just seemed notable.

fernando · 13th May 2015, 01:17 PM

In the plate and nomina designed and crafted by Francisco Xavier Palomares in 1762, after the listing drawn by his father Francisco Santiago Palomares, the name for these smiths (father Thomás and son Luis) was DE AIALA.
Mind you, the maker's punzon may appear both in the uncovered part of the tang, before the guard (ricasso), also in the first third of the blade section (forte).
BTW, the term ricasso may also be applied to the blade section right after the hilt when its purpose is the ( long) sword entire hand holding, which is a different story.
Whereas the blade has (or not) an assumed ricasso before the hilt, i would say such is not a characteristic of different smiths but the purpose the blade is going to serve, whether a cup hilt sword, a swept hilt rapier, you name it.
I am not sure this whole story makes sense, as i am far from having a profound knowledge of the subject.
Attached are examples of marks in ricassos, the first a cup hilt sword with period symbol in both sides and the second with a makers punzon in one side; the first also with a period typical motto on the blade (MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO) and the second with the maker's name (GONZALO SIMON).
Master Gonzalo Simon (1608-1617) also figures in the Palomares nomina and, eventually also uses the 'anchor' mark

.

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 06:41 AM

Superbly explained and illustrated by the master !!!

Thank you Nando!

Fernando K · 14th May 2015, 02:30 PM

Hola Me ha llamado la atencion el motto . No deberia ser

MI SEÑAL ES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIJO

Afectosamente. Fernando K

(El traductor no permite, o no se, ponerlo como corresponde, en ingles)

fernando · 14th May 2015, 03:27 PM

Espaderos were not so good in writing as in forging blades, Fernando

.
The only letter of the motto i was not sure of, was the H, as this part of my blade was rather worn.
But i happened to locate the mentioning of a shell guard sword (item #234) in the Portuguese/Spanish exhibition of 1882 in Lisbon, with the same motto and precisely the same words ... and with the H included. Also the Christ crucified symbols were present in the ricasso. Such sword belonged to D. Jaquim Garcia Toledo from Lisbon.

13th May 2015, 01:17 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In the plate and nomina designed and crafted by Francisco Xavier Palomares in 1762, after the listing drawn by his father Francisco Santiago Palomares, the name for these smiths (father Thomás and son Luis) was DE AIALA. Mind you, the maker's punzon may appear both in the uncovered part of the tang, before the guard (ricasso), also in the first third of the blade section (forte). BTW, the term ricasso may also be applied to the blade section right after the hilt when its purpose is the ( long) sword entire hand holding, which is a different story. Whereas the blade has (or not) an assumed ricasso before the hilt, i would say such is not a characteristic of different smiths but the purpose the blade is going to serve, whether a cup hilt sword, a swept hilt rapier, you name it. I am not sure this whole story makes sense, as i am far from having a profound knowledge of the subject. Attached are examples of marks in ricassos, the first a cup hilt sword with period symbol in both sides and the second with a makers punzon in one side; the first also with a period typical motto on the blade (MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO) and the second with the maker's name (GONZALO SIMON). Master Gonzalo Simon (1608-1617) also figures in the Palomares nomina and, eventually also uses the 'anchor' mark . Attached Images

14th May 2015, 06:41 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	!! Superbly explained and illustrated by the master !!! Thank you Nando!

13th May 2015, 12:25 AM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,632	Some thoughts on a composite!!!! Search/ triggers new broom, the ship of theseus on youtube

13th May 2015, 02:24 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I'm really bad at finding pics etc. but what I mean is that on rapiers it seems the guard of course is at the base of the blade, and the ricasso extends to the bottom of the grip. In other words there is a section where the fingers extend past the grip and around the block section. With the cuphilt for example, the cup is at the blades end, and inside there are pas d'ane rings adjacent to the ricasso......then the grip starts beyond that. In this type of tang, the grip is right at the blade base, there is no ricasso to be visible inside the cup or guard. Fernando can explain this better The symbol you show here is the cross and orb, while somewhat related to the 'anchors' in having cross symbolism, is not what I mean by the symbol on your blade. The cross and orb relate mostly to German blades, and though often suggested 'makers marks' are usually used in conjunction with various names, invocations or other inscriptions on blades. This is very much like the way the 'anchors' were used on Spanish blades, and used in Solingen with other spuriously used punzones, names and phrases. On the Aiala name, just an observation as the name is spelled differently on various occasions so interjection of the 'de' might be correct. Just seemed notable.

14th May 2015, 02:30 PM	#6
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola Me ha llamado la atencion el motto . No deberia ser MI SEÑAL ES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIJO Afectosamente. Fernando K (El traductor no permite, o no se, ponerlo como corresponde, en ingles)

14th May 2015, 03:27 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Espaderos were not so good in writing as in forging blades, Fernando . The only letter of the motto i was not sure of, was the H, as this part of my blade was rather worn. But i happened to locate the mentioning of a shell guard sword (item #234) in the Portuguese/Spanish exhibition of 1882 in Lisbon, with the same motto and precisely the same words ... and with the H included. Also the Christ crucified symbols were present in the ricasso. Such sword belonged to D. Jaquim Garcia Toledo from Lisbon.