Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 11th May 2015, 04:21 AM

Hi Jim

Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows:
Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St
Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645
Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend
Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St
Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St
Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane
Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St
Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory
Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St
Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend
Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St

There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2015, 06:33 AM

Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck.
It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early.

With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition.

It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought.

I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates.
It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual.

Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please!

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th May 2015, 12:39 PM

Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards
Anthony D. Darling
The two swords illustrated and discussed in this
paper are of particular importance to students and
collectors of 18th century British military edged
weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation
patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass
hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel
hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary
pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use
as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration
resembles its infantry counterpart so closely,
we can safely assume that both swords date from this
period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as
brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted
man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords
were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last
resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry
privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers
in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry
regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during
the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4
Infantry Sword
This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved,
single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller.
The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running
fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham
sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...49_Darling.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th May 2015, 02:25 PM

Salaams....and heres another thing ! I didnt know that Mazanskys work was on the web ..free...and it is essential reading...please see the slightly incomplete but hugely informative work which goes in for Typology of this enormously morphed style of sword...This work certainly helps the reader balance the various weapons. Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ration&f=false

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 16th May 2015, 07:44 AM

Hi Guys

Just working through what I have and haven’t posted and realised I had not put my favourite up yet, so here goes.

Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill
Date: Circa 1690-1720 (17-18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish (Glasgow)
Overall Length: 93.5 cm (36.8 inches)
Blade length: 79.7 cm (31.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 4.4 cm (1.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Blade marked "Andria Farara" in the centre.

Description
The Iron hilt has a broad flared wrist guard with fluted decoration. The edges of all the broad and narrow guards are cut with pairs of claws with bifurcated ends. The piercing includes hearts made up of three separate holes, a diamond one shaped to fit between the other two which are round. The central piercing on the broad guards is in the form of an X. The grip is stag horn. All other bars are broad and have deep fluted decoration. This is a full basket. The broad sword blade is marked “"Andria Farara" on both sides.

General Remarks
Provenance: sold by Philip Fialides of Impala Antiques to retired Victorian Superintendent of Police Noel Standfield, Noel then sold the sword on to Murray Gray. Noel had done considerable research on this sword and was the first to claim it is an unsigned Gemmill.

Sword has since been confirmed as an unsigned Thomas Gemmill by the Baron of Earlshall who will be featuring this sword in his book.

Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737)

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th May 2015, 05:40 PM

Salaams all...In support of the above post please see https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1899820795

Simply go to the page and select the required Illustration which is also loaded with script details...on page 13 ...Scottish Broadsword with Highland Dirk puts the reader in the middle of Swordmaker style, detail, makers names etc etc...Including some Andrea Ferara details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 21st May 2015, 05:27 AM

Hi Guys

Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is.

Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt)
Date: Circa 1615-40
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾”
Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8”
Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8”
Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4”
Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8”
Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”.

With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get.

Description
English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40
English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122
OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178

Cheers Cathey and Rex

11th May 2015, 04:21 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Harveys Hi Jim Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows: Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645 Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either. Cheers Cathey and Rex

16th May 2015, 07:44 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill Hi Guys Just working through what I have and haven’t posted and realised I had not put my favourite up yet, so here goes. Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill Date: Circa 1690-1720 (17-18th Century) Nationality: Scottish (Glasgow) Overall Length: 93.5 cm (36.8 inches) Blade length: 79.7 cm (31.4 inches) Blade widest point: 4.4 cm (1.7 inches) Marks, etc: Blade marked "Andria Farara" in the centre. Description The Iron hilt has a broad flared wrist guard with fluted decoration. The edges of all the broad and narrow guards are cut with pairs of claws with bifurcated ends. The piercing includes hearts made up of three separate holes, a diamond one shaped to fit between the other two which are round. The central piercing on the broad guards is in the form of an X. The grip is stag horn. All other bars are broad and have deep fluted decoration. This is a full basket. The broad sword blade is marked “"Andria Farara" on both sides. General Remarks Provenance: sold by Philip Fialides of Impala Antiques to retired Victorian Superintendent of Police Noel Standfield, Noel then sold the sword on to Murray Gray. Noel had done considerable research on this sword and was the first to claim it is an unsigned Gemmill. Sword has since been confirmed as an unsigned Thomas Gemmill by the Baron of Earlshall who will be featuring this sword in his book. Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737) Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

16th May 2015, 05:40 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...In support of the above post please see https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1899820795 Simply go to the page and select the required Illustration which is also loaded with script details...on page 13 ...Scottish Broadsword with Highland Dirk puts the reader in the middle of Swordmaker style, detail, makers names etc etc...Including some Andrea Ferara details. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th May 2015 at 06:00 PM.

21st May 2015, 05:27 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt) Hi Guys Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is. Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt) Date: Circa 1615-40 Nationality: British Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾” Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8” Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8” Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4” Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8” Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”. With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get. Description English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40 English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides. References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67 MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122 OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

11th May 2015, 06:33 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck. It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early. With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition. It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought. I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates. It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual. Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please! Best regards, Jim

11th May 2015, 12:39 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards Anthony D. Darling The two swords illustrated and discussed in this paper are of particular importance to students and collectors of 18th century British military edged weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration resembles its infantry counterpart so closely, we can safely assume that both swords date from this period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4 Infantry Sword This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved, single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller. The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...49_Darling.pdf Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

11th May 2015, 02:25 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams....and heres another thing ! I didnt know that Mazanskys work was on the web ..free...and it is essential reading...please see the slightly incomplete but hugely informative work which goes in for Typology of this enormously morphed style of sword...This work certainly helps the reader balance the various weapons. Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ration&f=false Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.