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Old 30th April 2015, 12:43 AM   #1
rickystl
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Default Algerian Musket - Restored

Hello again. Here is another gun some of you might find interesting.
This is a typical Algerian Kabyle long gun, with the typical large miquelet flintlock. This was a fairly plain gun that did not take a lot of work to restore to safe firing condition. Here is what was done:
1) The lock just needed cleaned and the trigger bar bent a little to better align with the trigger pull. The lock sparks really good now.
2) The stock was in the shape shown here and really did not need any attention. I didn't even re-finish the stock. Left it as is.
3) The outside of the barrel was already in the condition as shown, with the front and rear sights intact. So the breech plug was removed and inspected along with thread condition. All seemed good. So a new steel .55 caliber barrel liner was installed.
4) There was only two original barrel bands that came with the gun. And they were really beat up. So, had Armourer John Katz make 4 new ones that closely resembled the originals.
5) Original ramrod was missing. But easy to make a new one with brass tip threaded for cleaning accessories.

Gun works and shoots fine now. Hope you enjoy the pics. Rick.
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Old 30th April 2015, 12:44 AM   #2
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Some more pics....
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Old 30th April 2015, 12:48 AM   #3
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And the last.....I think.
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Old 30th April 2015, 03:57 AM   #4
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LOVELY JOB IMPRESSIVE RESORATION,CHEERS
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Old 30th April 2015, 11:46 AM   #5
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Another picture
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Old 30th April 2015, 02:44 PM   #6
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Thanks so much for the pic!!!! Have not seen this one before. Not only is the long gun displayed, but also the Algerian style pistol and Flyssa sword and knife. Very cool. Thanks. Rick.
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Old 30th April 2015, 09:05 PM   #7
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Hi Rick,
Here is mine. I had to do barrel bands like you,not fixed yet.
Kubur
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Old 2nd May 2015, 05:18 PM   #8
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Hi Kubur.
Your's has a very nice decorated stock. And all the inlays seem to be there. Your ramrod looks like it still has most of the metal (brass) wrap still intact. Great! As you say, some new barrel bands, and that should turn out looking good. I really like the stock decoration.
An interesting feature of these guns is the bottom of the fore stock is flat, and the length is only about two-thirds the length of the barrel. Also, the locks are inlet only about half the thickness of the lock plate. But every one I've seen is built that way.
By the way, is your's missing one of the two parts of the rear sight? Or is that just the photo?
Rick.
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Old 3rd May 2015, 08:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
And the last.....I think.


At your last but one picture...
Salaams rickystl How interesting is that!! The Algerian gun mark also seen as I see it on some swords at the top of the Red Sea region... I will dig out the references in Library later... This looks like the shortened version of "God is Great" The famous Islamic mark....and of Algerian swords and guns. Searching...

Got it...

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments

This is a clear Algerian mark (identical to the Gun Mark ) on a blade posted by Michael Blalock . I suspect that it appears on other blades as a simple cross format also on the same post above and that this marks Algerian blades and are common in Red Sea regions. This may well be one of the confusing factors linked to the conundrum of Omani Blades particularly when rehilting has occurred.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 3rd May 2015 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 4th May 2015, 09:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Kubur.
Your's has a very nice decorated stock. And all the inlays seem to be there. Your ramrod looks like it still has most of the metal (brass) wrap still intact. Great! As you say, some new barrel bands, and that should turn out looking good. I really like the stock decoration.
An interesting feature of these guns is the bottom of the fore stock is flat, and the length is only about two-thirds the length of the barrel. Also, the locks are inlet only about half the thickness of the lock plate. But every one I've seen is built that way.
By the way, is your's missing one of the two parts of the rear sight? Or is that just the photo?
Rick.

Hi Rick,
The ramrod is made of silver on wood. Yes, unfortunatly one part of the rear sight is missing and worst the top of the cock /hammer screw...
I have seen some Algerian long guns made in the early 20th. But this one is definitively from the beginning of the 19th c. (or late 18th) according to the book that I've seen. Best, Kubur
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Old 4th May 2015, 09:55 AM   #11
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Here the barrel bands. I gave them a patina just by putting them in a plastic bag with rotten eggs. Stinky and dirty but works well...
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Old 4th May 2015, 08:40 PM   #12
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Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim
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Old 5th May 2015, 04:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim



Salaams Jim, It was a long time ago that I took up the problem of this sword and Gun mark and please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at post 176. I almost forgot what that problem was but it relates to swords with either that mark or a simplified cross appearing in Red Sea Areas sometimes rehilted on Omani Hilts but carrying this mark. Accordingly the mark is translated by Dom as meaning ...made by...(Amal)... and clearly with an Algerian link. I hope there is no derailment here as everyone can observe the amazing swordmark which is identical.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 5th May 2015, 07:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Jim, It was a long time ago that I took up the problem of this sword and Gun mark and please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at post 176. I almost forgot what that problem was but it relates to swords with either that mark or a simplified cross appearing in Red Sea Areas sometimes rehilted on Omani Hilts but carrying this mark. Accordingly the mark is translated by Dom as meaning ...made by...(Amal)... and clearly with an Algerian link. I hope there is no derailment here as everyone can observe the amazing swordmark which is identical.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Good point, but don't think these observations will derail the thread as little further will develop concerning markings here. The idea was to determine if any connection to the distinct marking on this musket, using the marks on the analogous sword blade instances as examples.
Many times clues as to symbolism, purpose or meaning of marks and features on many weapons whether edged or firearms, are found in assorted material culture or items.
A mark occurring on a rug or coin might be informative in comparison to something seen on a particular weapon.....investigative research
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Old 7th May 2015, 08:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Good point, but don't think these observations will derail the thread as little further will develop concerning markings here. The idea was to determine if any connection to the distinct marking on this musket, using the marks on the analogous sword blade instances as examples.
Many times clues as to symbolism, purpose or meaning of marks and features on many weapons whether edged or firearms, are found in assorted material culture or items.
A mark occurring on a rug or coin might be informative in comparison to something seen on a particular weapon.....investigative research



Salaams Jim, Absolutely agreed and thank you for your post. I had hoped to engage with Mr Michael Blalock but I suspect he was very busy... The current gun mark and sword mark linkage are now firmly placed for future research ...and I hope some light can be thrown on the Algerian stamp or strike. Blade marks, stamps, design and strikes are very confusing particularly as the trend to copy European marks probably to indicate a superior blade seems to have been done a lot in Arabia ....though clearly some marks came with the great flood of weapons from centres like Solingen. Just the other day I saw an Omani Dancing Sword sporting the funny face moon and accompanying decoration and with a stud or dot at the tip but this was a played with sword from Muscat and totally flexible! It occured to me that swords with a simple cross often near the hilt at the throat were in fact of the make Algerian...and on non flexible blades. Thanks for your reply..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th May 2015, 05:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
At your last but one picture...
Salaams rickystl How interesting is that!! The Algerian gun mark also seen as I see it on some swords at the top of the Red Sea region... I will dig out the references in Library later... This looks like the shortened version of "God is Great" The famous Islamic mark....and of Algerian swords and guns. Searching...

Got it...

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments

This is a clear Algerian mark (identical to the Gun Mark ) on a blade posted by Michael Blalock . I suspect that it appears on other blades as a simple cross format also on the same post above and that this marks Algerian blades and are common in Red Sea regions. This may well be one of the confusing factors linked to the conundrum of Omani Blades particularly when rehilting has occurred.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim.
Thank you so much for identifying this mark. I am very much a novice with markings. Yes, the mark on the blade looks the same as on the gun lock. Hmmm...Red Sea region. How interesting. I'll be able to add this information to my library page for this gun. Again, THANK YOU!!!
Rick.
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Old 9th May 2015, 06:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.


Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim
Thanks for your input on this Thread. That Ibrahiim was able to identify this mark, with links to the Red Sea region, and add to this Thread is most appreciated. And an unexpected surprise.
Now I need to investigate if any other markings exist on the other Algerian locks in my collection.
Meantime, here is a lock marking from another Algerian musket in my collection. It is a different mark, but in the same location as the first. Maybe someone can identify this one?
Thanks again for any assistance.
Rick.
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Old 9th May 2015, 06:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Rick,
The ramrod is made of silver on wood. Yes, unfortunatly one part of the rear sight is missing and worst the top of the cock /hammer screw...
I have seen some Algerian long guns made in the early 20th. But this one is definitively from the beginning of the 19th c. (or late 18th) according to the book that I've seen. Best, Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Well, you might be in luck. Here is an Algerian "parts" gun I have. The barrel still has both pieces of the rear sight, and the top screw still has it's "wing". I can send you both sight pieces and the complete hammer screw if you like? I'll clean them up a bit before mailing. Just let me know if you're interested.
HAMMER SCREW: I've found that these screws are interchangeable with other Algerian locks. That way you can just trade screws. If the threads don't match, you can detach the wing and tiny post and add it to your hammer screw.
REAR SIGHT: Can you tell by looking at the empty space if the rear sight was soldered on or staked on? If you know what I mean?
Rick.
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Old 9th May 2015, 06:42 PM   #19
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Hi Kubur.
Are those barrel bands original to your gun? Or did you make/have those made for you ??
Rick.
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Old 10th May 2015, 10:39 AM   #20
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I want to add another very well and artisticly made Algerian lock of my collection which has no single mark on it.
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Old 10th May 2015, 05:01 PM   #21
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Hi Corrado.
That is a VERY nice Algerian lock. Very artistic and well executed. Notice the decorative file and chisel work on the mainspring. Not usually seen on these locks. Very neat. I've noticed that all these locks are built almost identical. The only differences in the amount of decoration. Thanks for posting.

I've looked at three other Algerian locks in my collection. All have a mark. But all different. I'll take photos and Post here.
Rick.
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Old 10th May 2015, 06:04 PM   #22
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Hi Rick,
I had only one band and I asked to a guy to make four more for me.
The original is silver, the new ones are tin-plate but with the "artificial patina", i's alomost impossible to see the difference...
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Old 10th May 2015, 06:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Hi Jim
Thanks for your input on this Thread. That Ibrahiim was able to identify this mark, with links to the Red Sea region, and add to this Thread is most appreciated. And an unexpected surprise.
Now I need to investigate if any other markings exist on the other Algerian locks in my collection.
Meantime, here is a lock marking from another Algerian musket in my collection. It is a different mark, but in the same location as the first. Maybe someone can identify this one?
Thanks again for any assistance.
Rick.


Hi Rick,
Absolutely, and thank you for continuing the impetus of this thread by seeking other examples along with Corrado. The observations by Ibrahiim indeed reveal there are certain similarities which might give us a better idea of the scope and dynamics of arms trade in these regions.

While my focus has typically been on edged weapons and makers marks and inscriptions mostly European, I have found that often many clues and important details reside with material on firearms. Case in point with Elgood's excellent book on Islamic firearms.....his footnotes are a treasure trove of encyclopedic data!

Often of course various trade entrepots handled all types of arms, and comparing marks on all can many times give us key details.

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 10th May 2015, 09:09 PM   #24
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Well, I have three more locks to post here. Since I posted two above, we'll call these locks 3,4, and 5. I'll post #5 separately, since it is the most interesting.
#3 here is another "parts" lock with it's mark on the bottom.
#4 lock is complete and in good condition, but needs additional cleaning. With it's mark.
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Old 10th May 2015, 09:24 PM   #25
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Here is lock #5. At one time this had to be a beautiful lock. It is a bit larger than others that I've seen. It's complete,with the exception of the crude copper replacement wing. The lock plate has brass overlay on BOTH sides of the plate. It has some brass, but mostly silver inlay/overlay throughout. Even the bottom of the mainspring has genuine silver inlay, most of which is still present. The dog safety catch at the rear has what's left of a "pink" stone, so famous with Algerian guns.
There are three marks on the bottom of the lock. Two engraved in brass plates, the other in a silver plate. Only lock I've ever seen marked this way. Maybe someone can translate? Thanks for looking. Rick.
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Old 10th May 2015, 09:26 PM   #26
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And the rest for lock #5. Very cool markings!!!
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Old 11th May 2015, 09:58 AM   #27
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Hi Rick, thanks a lot for posting these interesting fotos, especially the underside of the mainspring with its silver inlay and the brass cover at the inside is most remarkable. This shows the pleasure of the gunsmith while making this lock and demonstrating his skillfullness. Very impressive. I like these locks very much, much more than the long guns they are belonging to
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Old 16th May 2015, 05:43 PM   #28
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Hi Corado.
Yes, notice the silver is genuine inlay, not just painted on. Only one I've ever seen with the mainspring like this. And the marks/signatures (3) on the bottom are especially interesting being done with inlays. Hope someone can translate them? Just wish this lock was in the condition of yours. LOL.
Thanks again for your comments. And, again, your lock is the only one I've seen with the fancy chisel and file work on the mainspring.
Rick.
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Old 16th May 2015, 09:33 PM   #29
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Hi Rick,
This seems appropriate, entitled The Arab Gunsmith by Edwin Lord Weeks, American artist too!
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 18th May 2015, 12:19 AM   #30
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Hi Norman.
Yes, I have this in my vidio library. Wish I had a Print of this for framing.
Thanks, Rick.
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