Pandai Saras Luk 9

Gustav · 9th May 2015, 01:16 PM

Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these.

As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras.

More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style.

The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.

rasdan · 10th May 2015, 03:26 PM

Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this.

If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic.

I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too..

As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting.

Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris.

Gustav · 10th May 2015, 04:23 PM

Rasdan, thank you very much for the picture. There are similarities indeed, yet becouse of the deep Jenggot it looks like a blade from Narathiwat.

Attached the Sorsoran of a Keris, which is provenanced from Kedah. It isn't, of course, a Pandai Saras (there is no Ada-Ada, the cross section is hexagonal).

The Buntut of The PS Luk 9 is actually missing, the other picture is showing a Sulawesi sheath. 2011 I didn't know nothing about Buntut forms from Kedah, so this elongated Buntut was my only possibility to guess.

Like you, I also think, there are so much different features, which originaly could be distinctive for some talented smiths. There surely was an immense intermingling of influences, somewhere is a good post of DAHenkel about that. Clear archetypical forms are rare, perhaps almost impossible, and I feel at the moment, Kedah is bladewise especially "eclectical" - a lot of blade styles and mixing of elements from different locations.

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2015, 09:34 PM

Peninsula keris are not really my thing, but some of the content in this thread does interest me sufficiently for me to raise some questions.

When the term Pandai Saras , or Pandai Mamat, or Pandai Somebodyelse is used, does that mean that for an authority on Peninsula keris, that the name given to the keris identifies the maker, or is it the name of a style?

If it is the name of a style, can that style be attributed to a particular span of time?

When making the decision to name a keris as Pandai Somethingorother, what indicators are taken into consideration?

David · 11th May 2015, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When the term Pandai Saras , or Pandai Mamat, or Pandai Somebodyelse is used, does that mean that for an authority on Peninsula keris, that the name given to the keris identifies the maker, or is it the name of a style?

If it is the name of a style, can that style be attributed to a particular span of time?

When making the decision to name a keris as Pandai Somethingorother, what indicators are taken into consideration?

Hey Alan, as you know this isn't really my area of concentration either, but from what i do understand there is no expectation that a keris that follows the form of a Keris Pandai Saras be actually made by the famed pandai himself. It is simply a style and dhapur of blade that was either originated by or made popular by that smith. The same can be said of Keris Tok Chu i believe. Hopefully if i am misled on this someone with more knowledge on the area will correct me.

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2015, 07:20 AM

Thanks David.

Since execution detail seems to vary pretty widely, as does material and dhapur, would it be reasonable to say that when the description "Pandai Saras" is used, what we are to understand is the style of workmanship?

Maybe a bit similar to tangguh in Javanese keris, except that with tangguh, material is one of the indicators.

Actually, when I look at a "Pandai Saras", and some other blades from outside Jawa, what I see is Madura Sepuh --- yeah, there are very slight differences, but overall:- Madura Sepuh.

rasdan · 11th May 2015, 12:08 PM

Yes Gustav, the nearer a keris to our present time, the more intermingling features can be seen. I sometime feel that this type of keris are almost impossible to classify with some acceptable accuracy.

G'day Alan.

Pandai Saras, Pandai Mamat, Tok Chu etc are supposedly pandai keris that makes keris to a certain style. It is said that Pandai Saras came from Majapahit. The closest name of a Majapahit Empu to Pandai Saras that I had heard is Empu Ki Sarap. Some say we can attribute these names to certain time period, but I doubt it.

On a different note, I am most interested to a ricikan on the ganja of many pandai saras keris which we can also see on some later Balinese keris - some Bugis and Palembang keris also have this ricikan. I am not sure the name of the ricikan which I mark in the picture below (the Balinese keris is from your website).

Do you know the name of this ricikan and does this ricikan present in older tangguh say, prior to the 1800's? - if we associate tangguh with time.

Also, what are the characteristics of a Madura Sepuh keris present on the above keris?

10th May 2015, 03:26 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Thanks Gustav, but really I am almost clueless on this. If we stick on the name Pandai Saras, then we probably have a smaller problem. But once we have Pandai Mamat etc and we have to differentiate between Pattani, Kelantan and Kedah I think it gets a bit more problematic. I agree, we can say that Kedah pieces are more rough and rugged compared to Pattani and Kelantan, but in some cases, I see these rugged keris are also being attributed to Pandai Mamat which is either from Kelantan or Pattani . Then we have other Pandai too.. As for the dress, I think we can safely guess that yours are from Kedah. The buntut that you have on your keris is very interesting. Below is a picture of a keris Pattani sorsoran from the "Senjata Pattani" facebook page which is strikingly similar to your keris. Attached Images

10th May 2015, 04:23 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Rasdan, thank you very much for the picture. There are similarities indeed, yet becouse of the deep Jenggot it looks like a blade from Narathiwat. Attached the Sorsoran of a Keris, which is provenanced from Kedah. It isn't, of course, a Pandai Saras (there is no Ada-Ada, the cross section is hexagonal). The Buntut of The PS Luk 9 is actually missing, the other picture is showing a Sulawesi sheath. 2011 I didn't know nothing about Buntut forms from Kedah, so this elongated Buntut was my only possibility to guess. Like you, I also think, there are so much different features, which originaly could be distinctive for some talented smiths. There surely was an immense intermingling of influences, somewhere is a good post of DAHenkel about that. Clear archetypical forms are rare, perhaps almost impossible, and I feel at the moment, Kedah is bladewise especially "eclectical" - a lot of blade styles and mixing of elements from different locations. Attached Images

11th May 2015, 12:08 PM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Yes Gustav, the nearer a keris to our present time, the more intermingling features can be seen. I sometime feel that this type of keris are almost impossible to classify with some acceptable accuracy. G'day Alan. Pandai Saras, Pandai Mamat, Tok Chu etc are supposedly pandai keris that makes keris to a certain style. It is said that Pandai Saras came from Majapahit. The closest name of a Majapahit Empu to Pandai Saras that I had heard is Empu Ki Sarap. Some say we can attribute these names to certain time period, but I doubt it. On a different note, I am most interested to a ricikan on the ganja of many pandai saras keris which we can also see on some later Balinese keris - some Bugis and Palembang keris also have this ricikan. I am not sure the name of the ricikan which I mark in the picture below (the Balinese keris is from your website). Do you know the name of this ricikan and does this ricikan present in older tangguh say, prior to the 1800's? - if we associate tangguh with time. Also, what are the characteristics of a Madura Sepuh keris present on the above keris? Attached Images

9th May 2015, 01:16 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Rasdan, I am sure you have much more clues (and better reasoned) regarding styles from different Northern Malay Peninsula states then I. I like Malay Keris very much, yet I am very far from this part of world and have almost no exchange of information about these. As I understand it at this moment, blades from Kelantan and Kedah are very similar, there are no big distinctions. I have a blade, which is surely provenanced from Kedah, and the powerful Belalai Gajah (compared to slim and gracious BG from Patani) and thicker Gonjo is very similar on my Pandai Saras. More distincted is the sheath style from Kedah, yet I think, these variations are coming also from Perlis and Perak. Maybe one could speak of a Northern West coast style. The quite long "foot" of the Batang of my Pandai Saras requires an elongated Buntut, and such possibility is the Buntut form from Kedah. Also there are some features in Sampir which let me think of Kedah.

10th May 2015, 09:34 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Peninsula keris are not really my thing, but some of the content in this thread does interest me sufficiently for me to raise some questions. When the term Pandai Saras , or Pandai Mamat, or Pandai Somebodyelse is used, does that mean that for an authority on Peninsula keris, that the name given to the keris identifies the maker, or is it the name of a style? If it is the name of a style, can that style be attributed to a particular span of time? When making the decision to name a keris as Pandai Somethingorother, what indicators are taken into consideration?

11th May 2015, 07:20 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks David. Since execution detail seems to vary pretty widely, as does material and dhapur, would it be reasonable to say that when the description "Pandai Saras" is used, what we are to understand is the style of workmanship? Maybe a bit similar to tangguh in Javanese keris, except that with tangguh, material is one of the indicators. Actually, when I look at a "Pandai Saras", and some other blades from outside Jawa, what I see is Madura Sepuh --- yeah, there are very slight differences, but overall:- Madura Sepuh.