a group of landsknecht swords with star-shaped pommels

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

twohander own collection, pictures ©

Just a trivial note, these 'star shaped' pommels in the flattened form according to Moudry & Konopisky ("Edged Weapons : Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy", Prague, 1991, p.20-21) these curious pommels are often termed 'kosarice' ( = a popular Croatian pastry with similar shape).

The example (#3) in this reference is described as a mid-European sabre of c1600, and it is noted elsewhere in notes that swords with these kinds of pommels are known in Dalmatia and Venice in 16th c.

The sabre in the reference has a trellis type asymmetrical guard of early schiavona type. It is amazing how much the diffusion of the styles and forms of these arms are diffused via these mercenary forces throughout the armies and courts of Europe.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jim,

Thanks, interesting.
could you please post an image, I'm curious about the size and shape of the pommel, certainly on a schiavona.

best,
Jasper

[Jim McDougall]

Here is the page, please pardon the scribbled notes around it

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Here is the page, please pardon the scribbled notes around it

Salaams Jim et al, There appears to be a link between these hand and a half/two handers in the decoration to the guards and the Basket decoration on some Scottish/English? Basket hilts...Is it feasible that since the highlanders also used similar weapons ...and did so earlier than the appearance of the Basket Hilts that the decoration for example in the heart shaped cut out at Cornelistromp post at 21 in the first 3 pictures may have been transmitted to Basket Hilts from this design? This would indicate that "European" design was responsible for heart shaped cut outs on Scottish/English Basket Hilts. The caveat "Perhaps" is added.

To be clearer, from Harvey J S Withers I Quote"Scottish Two-Handed Swords.
In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, highlanders also carried the claidheamhda laimh or two handed sword. It is similar to German or Swiss two handed (Zweihander) swords carried by Landsknechte or mercenaries, and the few surviving examples have Scottish hilts with German blades. The hilt normally includes an oval shell guard and long, flattened, down-swept quillons. The third type of sword is referred to as the “Lowland Sword”. These have very long blades, with characteristic side rings to the hilt, globular pommels and quillons set at right angles to the blade, terminating in knobs"Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Well observed Ibrahiim, and it does indeed seem quite possible of the cross pollination of forms as well as decorative motif. Scottish mercenary forces through European certainly must have adopted these kinds of nuances for their own in many cases. While often it must be conceded that a device such as the heart may well be simply an aesthetic, there are sometimes more meaningful applications, which unfortunately are unable to be supported and remain speculations.

These diffusions are of course well known in many aspects of these arms, whether overall, or simply elements such as these interesting pommels. I think that is the key importance of these forums as it provides a venue to share comparative examples to find any consistencies.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well observed Ibrahiim, and it does indeed seem quite possible of the cross pollination of forms as well as decorative motif. Scottish mercenary forces through European certainly must have adopted these kinds of nuances for their own in many cases. While often it must be conceded that a device such as the heart may well be simply an aesthetic, there are sometimes more meaningful applications, which unfortunately are unable to be supported and remain speculations.

These diffusions are of course well known in many aspects of these arms, whether overall, or simply elements such as these interesting pommels. I think that is the key importance of these forums as it provides a venue to share comparative examples to find any consistencies.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Thanks for your reply ....I was deeply ensconsed in Heraldic Symbols but have yet to evidence a potential linkage with the heart shape. Perhaps it is Talismanic.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just a trivial note, these 'star shaped' pommels in the flattened form according to Moudry & Konopisky ("Edged Weapons : Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy", Prague, 1991, p.20-21) these curious pommels are often termed 'kosarice' ( = a popular Croatian pastry with similar shape).

The example (#3) in this reference is described as a mid-European sabre of c1600, and it is noted elsewhere in notes that swords with these kinds of pommels are known in Dalmatia and Venice in 16th c.

The sabre in the reference has a trellis type asymmetrical guard of early schiavona type. It is amazing how much the diffusion of the styles and forms of these arms are diffused via these mercenary forces throughout the armies and courts of Europe.

thanks for the picture.
I have noticed this pie-shaped pommel cap more often on schiavona and other south European swords, however unforunately it has nothing to do with the starpommels under discussion; not in form but also not in terms of time.

these are approximately 100 years later.

best
Jasper