A Venetian Schiavona for comment

CSinTX · 5th May 2015, 05:42 PM

I wanted to add this example to the record here. Recently sold at Herman Historica auction #70. The guard is very similar but slightly lighter in design. Interestingly, the hole in the pommel that is normally used to secure the base of the guard to the pommel appears to have been filled in. It also seems that the pommel has been rotated 180 degrees at some point. It does appear to match the rest of the sword though.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/newauction.html

ulfberth · 7th May 2015, 09:30 AM

Hi Dafunky,

this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find.
The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached .
So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case.
All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ?

Best

Ulfberth

Kasey · 7th May 2015, 10:42 AM

Hi Casey,
These picture of schiavona are very nice. Never get xany chance to see closely any schiavona.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Dafunky,

this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find.
The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached .
So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case.
All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ?

Best

Ulfberth

Thank you so much for asking, it is exciting to discuss these distinct and intriguing swords.
Actually, as far as I have known, and in rechecking all notes and examples I have found, the trellis guards seem to remain unattached to the pommel though often directly adjacent. Indeed, this curious and seemingly deliberate aperture seems to appear somewhat consistently on the cats head pommels of these, but typically as noted on the side next to the guard.

This may be another of those curious anomalies like Austrian notched blades which defy explanation yet seem traditionally and faithfully added. As noted it is of course quite possible that refurbishing during working life, the pommel might have been replaced or reset contrary to its original position.

The only instance I have found of the guard being attached to the pommel was on a schiavona 'type' rapier ("A Schiavona Rapier", Claude Blair, JAAS Vol.V, #12, 1967, pp. 453-54).....in this case it is screwed to the side of the pommel (in the style of 17th century English hilts).

Kasey
Welcome to the forum, and indeed it is exciting to see these fascinating examples and learn from them! Please do not hesitate to ask questions and add ideas.....here we all learn together!!!

Best regards,
Jim

ulfberth · 15th May 2015, 06:30 PM

Hi Casey,

This thread of 2012 is very educating and shows a lot of variation of schiavonas, on page two number 126 you can find the type that looks like yours.
After seeing this, one would want to start a collection of schiavonas !

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

best
Ulfberth

5th May 2015, 05:42 PM	#1
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	I wanted to add this example to the record here. Recently sold at Herman Historica auction #70. The guard is very similar but slightly lighter in design. Interestingly, the hole in the pommel that is normally used to secure the base of the guard to the pommel appears to have been filled in. It also seems that the pommel has been rotated 180 degrees at some point. It does appear to match the rest of the sword though. http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_en/newauction.html Attached Images

7th May 2015, 09:30 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 435	Hi Dafunky, this example with the straight cross guard resembles the the style of your schiavona, this variation is rare and hard to find. The one here is surely an original item, however ... If the pommel would be rotated in the other direction and the hole would be open, the distance between the end of the angle on the guard and the hole in the pommel would be rather long to be attached . So, I would think that this is indeed an original pommel that has been replaced in its working life, as is often the case. All thought's on this are welcome, what do you think Jim ? Best Ulfberth

7th May 2015, 10:42 AM	#3
Kasey Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1	Hi Casey, These picture of schiavona are very nice. Never get xany chance to see closely any schiavona.

15th May 2015, 06:30 PM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 435	Hi Casey, This thread of 2012 is very educating and shows a lot of variation of schiavonas, on page two number 126 you can find the type that looks like yours. After seeing this, one would want to start a collection of schiavonas ! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30 best Ulfberth