Algerian Musket - Restored

Kubur · 30th April 2015, 09:05 PM

Hi Rick,
Here is mine. I had to do barrel bands like you,not fixed yet.
Kubur

rickystl · 2nd May 2015, 05:18 PM

Hi Kubur.
Your's has a very nice decorated stock. And all the inlays seem to be there. Your ramrod looks like it still has most of the metal (brass) wrap still intact. Great! As you say, some new barrel bands, and that should turn out looking good. I really like the stock decoration.
An interesting feature of these guns is the bottom of the fore stock is flat, and the length is only about two-thirds the length of the barrel. Also, the locks are inlet only about half the thickness of the lock plate. But every one I've seen is built that way.
By the way, is your's missing one of the two parts of the rear sight? Or is that just the photo?
Rick.

Kubur · 4th May 2015, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
Your's has a very nice decorated stock. And all the inlays seem to be there. Your ramrod looks like it still has most of the metal (brass) wrap still intact. Great! As you say, some new barrel bands, and that should turn out looking good. I really like the stock decoration.
An interesting feature of these guns is the bottom of the fore stock is flat, and the length is only about two-thirds the length of the barrel. Also, the locks are inlet only about half the thickness of the lock plate. But every one I've seen is built that way.
By the way, is your's missing one of the two parts of the rear sight? Or is that just the photo?
Rick.

Hi Rick,
The ramrod is made of silver on wood. Yes, unfortunatly one part of the rear sight is missing and worst the top of the cock /hammer screw...
I have seen some Algerian long guns made in the early 20th. But this one is definitively from the beginning of the 19th c. (or late 18th) according to the book that I've seen. Best, Kubur

Kubur · 4th May 2015, 09:55 AM

Here the barrel bands. I gave them a patina just by putting them in a plastic bag with rotten eggs. Stinky and dirty but works well...

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2015, 08:40 PM

Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th May 2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, It was a long time ago that I took up the problem of this sword and Gun mark and please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at post 176. I almost forgot what that problem was but it relates to swords with either that mark or a simplified cross appearing in Red Sea Areas sometimes rehilted on Omani Hilts but carrying this mark. Accordingly the mark is translated by Dom as meaning ...made by...(Amal)... and clearly with an Algerian link. I hope there is no derailment here as everyone can observe the amazing swordmark which is identical.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 5th May 2015, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, It was a long time ago that I took up the problem of this sword and Gun mark and please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at post 176. I almost forgot what that problem was but it relates to swords with either that mark or a simplified cross appearing in Red Sea Areas sometimes rehilted on Omani Hilts but carrying this mark. Accordingly the mark is translated by Dom as meaning ...made by...(Amal)... and clearly with an Algerian link. I hope there is no derailment here as everyone can observe the amazing swordmark which is identical.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Good point, but don't think these observations will derail the thread as little further will develop concerning markings here. The idea was to determine if any connection to the distinct marking on this musket, using the marks on the analogous sword blade instances as examples.
Many times clues as to symbolism, purpose or meaning of marks and features on many weapons whether edged or firearms, are found in assorted material culture or items.
A mark occurring on a rug or coin might be informative in comparison to something seen on a particular weapon.....investigative research

rickystl · 9th May 2015, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent notes Ibrahiim!
It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended.
It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords.
Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket.

This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim
Thanks for your input on this Thread. That Ibrahiim was able to identify this mark, with links to the Red Sea region, and add to this Thread is most appreciated. And an unexpected surprise.

Now I need to investigate if any other markings exist on the other Algerian locks in my collection.
Meantime, here is a lock marking from another Algerian musket in my collection. It is a different mark, but in the same location as the first. Maybe someone can identify this one?
Thanks again for any assistance.
Rick.

Jim McDougall · 10th May 2015, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Jim
Thanks for your input on this Thread. That Ibrahiim was able to identify this mark, with links to the Red Sea region, and add to this Thread is most appreciated. And an unexpected surprise.

Now I need to investigate if any other markings exist on the other Algerian locks in my collection.
Meantime, here is a lock marking from another Algerian musket in my collection. It is a different mark, but in the same location as the first. Maybe someone can identify this one?
Thanks again for any assistance.
Rick.

Hi Rick,
Absolutely, and thank you for continuing the impetus of this thread by seeking other examples along with Corrado. The observations by Ibrahiim indeed reveal there are certain similarities which might give us a better idea of the scope and dynamics of arms trade in these regions.

While my focus has typically been on edged weapons and makers marks and inscriptions mostly European, I have found that often many clues and important details reside with material on firearms. Case in point with Elgood's excellent book on Islamic firearms.....his footnotes are a treasure trove of encyclopedic data!

Often of course various trade entrepots handled all types of arms, and comparing marks on all can many times give us key details.

All best regards,
Jim

rickystl · 9th May 2015, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,
The ramrod is made of silver on wood. Yes, unfortunatly one part of the rear sight is missing and worst the top of the cock /hammer screw...
I have seen some Algerian long guns made in the early 20th. But this one is definitively from the beginning of the 19th c. (or late 18th) according to the book that I've seen. Best, Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Well, you might be in luck.

Here is an Algerian "parts" gun I have. The barrel still has both pieces of the rear sight, and the top screw still has it's "wing". I can send you both sight pieces and the complete hammer screw if you like? I'll clean them up a bit before mailing.

Just let me know if you're interested.
HAMMER SCREW: I've found that these screws are interchangeable with other Algerian locks. That way you can just trade screws. If the threads don't match, you can detach the wing and tiny post and add it to your hammer screw.
REAR SIGHT: Can you tell by looking at the empty space if the rear sight was soldered on or staked on? If you know what I mean?
Rick.

rickystl · 9th May 2015, 06:42 PM

Hi Kubur.
Are those barrel bands original to your gun? Or did you make/have those made for you ??
Rick.

corrado26 · 10th May 2015, 10:39 AM

I want to add another very well and artisticly made Algerian lock of my collection which has no single mark on it.
corrado26

rickystl · 10th May 2015, 05:01 PM

Hi Corrado.
That is a VERY nice Algerian lock. Very artistic and well executed. Notice the decorative file and chisel work on the mainspring. Not usually seen on these locks. Very neat. I've noticed that all these locks are built almost identical. The only differences in the amount of decoration. Thanks for posting.

I've looked at three other Algerian locks in my collection. All have a mark. But all different. I'll take photos and Post here.
Rick.

30th April 2015, 09:05 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rick, Here is mine. I had to do barrel bands like you,not fixed yet. Kubur Attached Images

4th May 2015, 09:55 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here the barrel bands. I gave them a patina just by putting them in a plastic bag with rotten eggs. Stinky and dirty but works well... Attached Images

10th May 2015, 10:39 AM	#12
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	I want to add another very well and artisticly made Algerian lock of my collection which has no single mark on it. corrado26 Attached Images

2nd May 2015, 05:18 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Kubur. Your's has a very nice decorated stock. And all the inlays seem to be there. Your ramrod looks like it still has most of the metal (brass) wrap still intact. Great! As you say, some new barrel bands, and that should turn out looking good. I really like the stock decoration. An interesting feature of these guns is the bottom of the fore stock is flat, and the length is only about two-thirds the length of the barrel. Also, the locks are inlet only about half the thickness of the lock plate. But every one I've seen is built that way. By the way, is your's missing one of the two parts of the rear sight? Or is that just the photo? Rick.

4th May 2015, 08:40 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent notes Ibrahiim! It has always amazed me that with these wonderfully historic arms, all attention is focused on appearance, value, condition but the mere mention of markings is typically ignored. In my view, all aspects of a weapon should be equally attended. It was interesting that your observations on that Algerian gun mark revealed striking similarities to those curious marks found on some of the blades on Red Sea swords. Without directing too much attention to these markings on the blades, it would be interesting to know if anyone has more on those seen on this musket. This one on the musket seems more pronounced and definable, while some of those others including the one shown by Mr. Blalock seem highly stylized, almost reminiscent of the 'twig' or similar marks from various trade blades. Best regards, Jim

9th May 2015, 06:42 PM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Kubur. Are those barrel bands original to your gun? Or did you make/have those made for you ?? Rick.

10th May 2015, 05:01 PM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Corrado. That is a VERY nice Algerian lock. Very artistic and well executed. Notice the decorative file and chisel work on the mainspring. Not usually seen on these locks. Very neat. I've noticed that all these locks are built almost identical. The only differences in the amount of decoration. Thanks for posting. I've looked at three other Algerian locks in my collection. All have a mark. But all different. I'll take photos and Post here. Rick.