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Old 28th April 2015, 10:45 PM   #1
JamesKelly
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Default Danish??? Brown Bess

Can anyone tell me its country of origin? I see nothing on it that looks like a Belgian proof mark. With considerable imagination the faint barrel marks near the lock might be construed as Danish, but I know very close to nothing about such things. Might the style of lockplate engraving to rear of cock be significant?

This musket was made under one or other of the various contracts the English had with continental gun makers, every time England ran out of weapons.

The gun is more or less pattered after the Marine & Militia model. This pattern hardware has a screw in the tang of the buttplate, and a flat sideplate. The short sear spring upper leaf and general buttstock shape does not look like 7 Years War period to me, I would GUESS more like about 1800 A.D. It has a 36" (864 mm) barrel about .82 caliber (20.8 mm). This one has a tang rear sight. The ramrod is engraved with the letter "G" over the number 19.

I bought it from England. The Englishman told me he found it in Sweden. He said it had been part of a large arms shipment from England to Sweden, which Included 10,000 Brown Bess muskets and 5,000 Heavy Cavalry sabers. This around 1810, give or take, when Napoleon was stirring things up in Europe
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Old 29th April 2015, 06:49 AM   #2
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The crossed sceptre marks surmounted by a crown are London Proof marks so your gun (or at least the barrel) is English. I do not recognise the other marks.
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Old 29th April 2015, 11:42 AM   #3
Fernando K
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Hello;

And crowned crossed scepters are particularly punch of the Tower of London, who admitted to testing the barrel built by individual dealers and for export or sold not to the government.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator
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Old 29th April 2015, 12:06 PM   #4
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LOOKS LIKE A TRADE MUSKET,EAST INDIA PATTERN FOR BRITISH COLONYS
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Old 29th April 2015, 12:38 PM   #5
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There are lots of swedish 'brown bess' muskets, marked tower, british proofed etc, and then remarked with swedish military numbers after export as seen here. Sometimes these have been converted to dog lock mechanisms as well. The lockplate doesn't have the expected tower etc markings but perhaps they have been ground off and reengraved. It looks like it may have had the beavers tail surrounding the breech which has either worn off or been sanded down, this would be expected on a military issue brown bess.
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Old 26th June 2015, 11:12 AM   #6
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Surely the give away here is the lack of a frizzen bridle and the pointed leaf shaped termination of the frizzen spring . Both characteristics of sea service muskets not seen on the regulation Brown Bess. For some reason Sea service locks inherited archaic features that go back to early Queen Anne muskets. Sea service has been described as the rough end of musket production and although there are standard types they often seem to be put together using a mixture of parts from Brown Bess production. I have seen one Militia or Marine musket issued with a re used Queen Anne doglock . True the rounded lock plate doesn't conform to the flat Sea Service type and as you point out its post 1777 but it seems reasonable that towards the end of the eighteenth century the two types began to merge. The Sea Service argument also accounts for the 36 inch barrel.
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Old 26th June 2015, 07:50 PM   #7
fernando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesKelly
...Might the style of lockplate engraving to rear of cock be significant?...

Whether made by British private makers under contract to the Government or made to go or at elsewhere, isn't that monogram under a crown, an approach to the official GEORGE REX ?
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Old 26th June 2015, 09:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Whether made by British private makers under contract to the Government or made to go or at elsewhere, isn't that monogram under a crown, an approach to the official GEORGE REX ?

Could be, but isn't the crown on English locks usually placed on the lock, between the hammer and the priming pan? Also I think the GR/VR or which ever monarch is involved, is not usually in this sort of script, but rather in seraphed letters?
Stu
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Old 27th June 2015, 09:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
Could be, but isn't the crown on English locks usually placed on the lock, between the hammer and the priming pan? Also I think the GR/VR or which ever monarch is involved, is not usually in this sort of script, but rather in seraphed letters?
Stu

As i said, Stu, an approach ... otherwise ?
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Old 27th June 2015, 01:42 PM   #10
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Im happy with the GR and crown .
True it doesn't conform to normal markings on an ordnance issue but I think we are agreed this isn't an ordnance musket ( no broad arrow or acceptance stamps ) but was probably made by a contractor who supplied parts to the ordnance system. The small rectangular stamp on the barrel ( SS ?) looks like a manufactures stamp in which case it should match a small stamp on the inside of the lockplate so its worth looking.
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Old 27th June 2015, 10:04 PM   #11
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Default Which lock are we discussing here?

The pic posted by Raf shows a completely different lock and stamping to one posted earlier by James Kelly. I am confused, but then I am old........
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Old 27th June 2015, 10:57 PM   #12
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To clarify . The picture I posted was from a 1760s sea service lock in order to show the lack of a frizzen bridle and the distinctive shape of the termination of the frizzen spring. Two features distinctive of sea service locks but not normally found on standard issue Brown Bess ordnance muskets .
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Old 30th June 2015, 08:28 AM   #13
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The crown and Cypher on James' lock really does not look British at all . A private contractor supplying a non British Government source would be breaking the law by applying a British Royal Cypher to his work . The cypher looks more like CR to me and the crown a European one .... perhaps Charles XIII or XIV of Sweden ... just guessing ? Here is the GR cypher on one of my British military flintlocks ...
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Old 24th July 2015, 06:47 PM   #14
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Guys, have a look to this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17643.
Go figure why not a single member has commented on it .
Can you see the similarity between both 'not yet identified' crowned initials ?

.
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