Catalogue of my collection

[simatua]

pics are coming up this weekend.
I need good daylight for the photo's, artificial light does not show the blade very good, and a flash reflects 2much.

[BluErf]

As promised, pictures from K. Jensen's book Den Indonesiske kris.

1st 2 are hilts referred to in the book as 'Siva Bhairava'. The next 3 are referred to as 'stylized rakassas'

The Shiva hilt's posture (rajalila, I believe) is quite different from the realistic Rashaksa hilt's.

The stylized rashaksa hilts have a slightly more angular form compared to my example, but it supports the theory that my hilt could really be an abstract form of rashaksas.

The interesting thing however, is that the Shiva hilts were collected in the early 1600s while the stylized ones in 1690 (except the 3rd one, which was 1700s). In the book, there were many realistic rashaksa forms collected from the early 1600s (and dated to earlier periods because they were already old and worn when collected then) right up to the 1800s. This could mean that there was/and still is a period of co-existence between the realistic forms and the stylized forms.

Of course I would admit that I am relying on Mr K. Jensen's books and his pictures in postulating that my example is an abstract rashaksa.

Hidayat, a fellow member at Kampung net, shares that the realistic form is called 'Putro Satu' while the abstract form is called 'Putri Satu'. Putro means son while Putri means daughter. This could be a recent terminology like the 'wadon' term that has been given to the famous hilt that was commonly referred to as a form of Durga in another earlier (and very heatedly debated) thread. The thing is, the original terms for these hilts could have been 'lost'.

[nechesh]

Well, the repro is a little rough on some of these images, but they all appear to be beautiful hilts. I might have to get the Jensen book and brush up on my Dutch. It looks fairly obvious that that lovely Shiva hilt doesn't belong on that first keris, doesn't it?
Anyway, i think you might be right, that the original terminology for these hilts may well have been lost. To me the last of them looks like it could be a stylized raksasa, but i wouldn't bet the farm on the other two. The first of them (the abstract hilts) almost looks more like a hanuman to me. I would not be at all surprised if more than one type of figurative form was cloaked in this type of vegetal abstraction. Wish we had better images.

[VVV]

Hi Nechesh,

Dutch won't help you very much because Karsten's book is written in Danish.
In case you need something translated I maybe could be of help?
Unless it's not the complete book of course.

Michael

[nechesh]

Oh. Thanks Michael, i don't know any Dutch either.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Well, the repro is a little rough on some of these images, but they all appear to be beautiful hilts. I might have to get the Jensen book and brush up on my Dutch. It looks fairly obvious that that lovely Shiva hilt doesn't belong on that first keris, doesn't it?
Anyway, i think you might be right, that the original terminology for these hilts may well have been lost. To me the last of them looks like it could be a stylized raksasa, but i wouldn't bet the farm on the other two. The first of them (the abstract hilts) almost looks more like a hanuman to me. I would not be at all surprised if more than one type of figurative form was cloaked in this type of vegetal abstraction. Wish we had better images.

That's what happens when you take a picture of an old picture printed in a book.

I'm not too sure about the lovely Shiva hilt not belonging to the 1st keris. The ivory could have shrunk/warped such that it can't sit down properly on the peksi anymore, and the mendak has probably gone missing, or it could even be the curator not wanting to push the hilt all the way down for fear of putting too much pressure to the hilt; I don't know. I just think that the blade is probably one of the most beautiful and strong-looking Javanese blades ever published. The hilt deserves the blade and vice versa.

How did you come to the conclusion that the 1st one is hanuman?

[nechesh]

Your right, that first one is a VERY nice blade. But aside fron the fit doesn't it appear a bit too small for this robust blade? Just a thought.
On the first abstract i just thought that the head looks very much like a monkey. Maybe it's just me.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by BluErf

..... that the realistic form is called 'Putro Satu' while the abstract form is called 'Putri Satu'. Putro means son while Putri means daughter. This could be a recent terminology like the 'wadon' term that has been given to the famous hilt that was commonly referred to as a form of Durga in another earlier (and very heatedly debated) thread.....

-------------------------
Putro Satu and Putri Satu;
'Putro' mean Son or guy.
'Putri' mean Lady, Girl or Daughter.
'Satu' mean One or First.
So, in Javanese and Maduranese term, Putro Satu mean Prince and Putri Satu mean Princess.

Oh ya, the 1st keris in my opinion nearer as an Old Balinese keris than Javanese. Its because bent of the Greneng and Ron Dho Nunut are dirrected to up.
The Old Balinese keris before Mataram Period resemble with Javanese (Pajajaran-Kediri-Singosari-Blambangan) keris although some ricikans still shown as the Balinese keris, specificaly on the form of Kembang Kacang, Lambe Gajah, Greneng, Ron Dho Nunut and Gonjo.

[nechesh]

I think Mans is probably right. In fact, i think both these Siva hilted keris are probably Balinese.

[nechesh]

Here is another Pasisir example posted on Adni site. Adni identifies it as Ganesha and if you look closely you can make out what could be an the elephant's trunk. Certainly all the variations on these vegetal motif hilts are not intended to be raksasa.
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/han...ganesh_112.htm
This is why i wonder if at least the first two examples of Jensen's that Kai Wee posted (not counting the Sivas) are indeed meant to be a different demon or deity. That first one still looks like hanuman to me.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by nechesh

........ That first one still looks like hanuman to me.

Hanuman is White Monkey Warrior. He has a leader of Monkey warriors.
Did you look the face of 1st hilt resemble with Monkey

I think nearer as a little Raksaksha
Perhaps the maker has an imagination by him self

[nechesh]

i think the first ABSTRACT hilt has a head that very much resembles a monkey's, not the ivory hilt. The first two ivory hilts are strictly representational and are very likely Siva as Jensen states. Are we talking about the same hilt Mans?

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by Mans

-------------------------
The Old Balinese keris before Mataram Period resemble with Javanese (Pajajaran-Kediri-Singosari-Blambangan) keris although some ricikans still shown as the Balinese keris, specificaly on the form of Kembang Kacang, Lambe Gajah, Greneng, Ron Dho Nunut and Gonjo.

Hey, beautiful old Putri Satu hilt! I love the old stately look. Very nice and warm feeling.

I would have thought that old Balinese kerises descended from the early Javanese kerises, so it is only natural that they resemble each other. The kerises in the pictures above were collected in Pasisir Jawa, in the 1600s, and kept in Museums ever since. So it may be quite safe to say that these are indeed old Javanese kerises.

[nechesh]

Mans, why would the snout have to protrude more to be hanuman. It still looks like a monkey to me. We often see Ganesha, Siva and other deities and demons depicted in a variety of forms. I don't see how you can say this could not possibly be a hauman because it's snout isn't long enough.
Kai Wee, if the provenance is there for Javanese origin then you are undoubtable correct. It is interesting that in later Balinese blades we still see form and appearence that is closer to these earlier Jawa keris than what we see in later Javanese keris. For instance, the custom of polished blades that we normally associate with Bali used to be the normal practice in Jawa. Much the same happened when Yoruban music moved to Cuba in the diaspora. The Cuba music stayed truer to it's origins, perhaps in an attempt to maintain it's identity with Africa while the music in Africa continued to evolve and change. Beautiful blades regardless.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Mans, why would the snout have to protrude more to be hanuman. It still looks like a monkey to me. We often see Ganesha, Siva and other deities and demons depicted in a variety of forms. I don't see how you can say this could not possibly be a hauman because it's snout isn't long enough.

Indeed, very difficult to identified about the Abstract hilt. So many arguments and interpretations which came out from our mind...
I just thought that the Hanuman smiles not like this one
But, what ever it was, This hilt is very impressive, isn't it ?
---


Kai, I agree that the Old Balinese keris resemble with Javanese. But I think the Balinese has the histories it self although any the Javanese touch So, the Balinese keris still has characteristic it self.

Here the link for example the old Javanese Keris (before Majapahit Era):
http://keris.fotopic.net/c684298.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c450928.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c618304.html

Majapahit Era (1300-1500s):
http://keris.fotopic.net/c645331.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c669644.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c785067.html

Mataram Era (1600-1700s) :
http://keris.fotopic.net/c451023.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c710134.html
http://keris.fotopic.net/c461570.html

We can see that the Javanese keris still different with Balinese, specifically at some Ricikans on Sorsoran.
I think the 1st keris which you posted is an impressive old Balinese keris on Early Mataram period 1500-1600s). Very beautiful workmanship. Same with your Balinese kris which you collected

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Mans

I just thought that the Hanuman smiles not like this one
But, what ever it was, This hilt is very impressive, isn't it ?

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that ALL the hilts displayed in this thread have been impressive.
Still, i'm not sure i even see the smile on this one the way that you do and i think we would need more angles and better pictures to ever begin to come to any real conclusions here.
Thanks for the links to all those beautiful keris. I would like to point out the difficulty in using these keris in comparision to keris which have been in collections for as long as the ones in Jensen's book have. The examples you display show the wear and erosion of centuries of acid baths and staining, while Jensen's examples are pristine as if recently made, having not received such treatment. Certainly many of the blades you show were once much more robust with the ricikan more intact and better developed. These blades would have once been polished in the way Balinese keris typically are, but that look went out of style in Jawa and the rough etch appearance came into mode. So comparisons are tough. Therefore, i think i'll sit on the fence awhile on this one. With one low quality photo of only a part of the blade we really don't have enough information to argue about. I suppose that even if this blade were collected in Northern Jawa it could still have had a Balinese origin. But i have seen Javanese blades of similar character. I wouldn't bet the farm either way.

[Mans]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey, beautiful old Putri Satu hilt! I love the old stately look. Very nice and warm feeling.

Hei, you has nice Putro Satu & Putri Satu too. Very charming too
I think we'll got a cool feeling if we hold it..
You have many impressive collections Kai Wei

[BluErf]

I really should be saving the money for my wedding, but this was too good to pass up...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BluErf

I really should be saving the money for my wedding, but this was too good to pass up...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Kai Wee, why on earth would you need a wife when you have all those beautiful keris.
That new one is a beauty...congrats!