Trebizond arms with huge amount of corals?

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2005, 09:47 PM

Hi Michal,
Absolutely breathtaking weapons! Although many would consider such weapons ostentatious, one cannot deny the beauty of the work, and I especially admire the corals. It seems these corals are seen on a number of Ottoman produced weapons, and these were often produced as presentation weapons for influential Ottoman figures in the considerable detente between regions under their suzereignty and European powers in the latter 18th-early 19th centuries. In the display catalogue for the Richard Wagner collection privately published some years ago, such weapons are seen, one miguelet completely encrusted in corals, and presented by the Dey of Algiers in the early 19th c. It is noted these weapons were often crafted with turquoises, rubies and garnets in the taste of Russian and Polish courts, presumably in their favor.

Dr. Zygulski in his essay "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Thier Provenance" (1979, Elgood, "Islamic Arms and Armour" p.213), notes that Poland developed an affinity for certain Turkish styles in about the second half of the 18th century, and Turkish arms had become exceedingly popular among the gentry from the many trophies acquired. It is suggested that many of these weapons were created in Istanbul, while many sabres with drooping quillons made in India of karabela form, and known as 'indyczka' (Indian like) were available.

I would presume the dominantly coral items somewhat rare as that motif seems somewhat unusual, and that suggestion was made in a discussion some time ago, possibly by Mr. Wagner when discussing the Algerian miguelet in his collection.

I am under the impression these sumptuous sabres, and such like decorated weapons in general, are presentation items of probably late 18th to mid 19th century, and likely were mounted in Turkey, and purchased for such use by influential Ottoman figures and thier courts.

All the best,
Jim

Mark · 13th December 2005, 09:55 PM

Is the reason for the seed or teardrop shape of the corals known? Virtually every weapon decorated in this way that I have seen has the coral in particular with this shape.

B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:47 PM

hi michal,
i'm afraid i row in the same boat as jens, so can only offer a hatful of images (you did mention the rarity and existence of similar pieces). i too believe these to be 'parade' pieces, although some are known to have older blades. i have always thought the indian equivalent are jade hilts daggers - same quality in blades but hilts move them away from the battlefield and into the court.

hi jim

B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:50 PM

more

B.I · 13th December 2005, 10:51 PM

and more

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2005, 01:05 AM

Wow!!!

Incredible photos Brian!
I have always been fascinated by coral, and to see such profuse application as on these weapons is amazing.
Mark, I think the teardrop shape may pertain to the ancient Greek mythology that claims coral represents the drops of blood from the slain gorgon Medusa. Apparantly coral was esteemed in the East, and especially in India, where it held mysterious and sacred properties including of course protection from the evil eye. It is noted by Pliny that the Gauls used it in decorating weapons and helmets as well, and considerable trade was carried out in the Meditteranean with coral, much of it found along the North African coast.
The amuletic value seems to derive considerably from the blood color and that it is virtually a living mineral derived from the sea.

All best regards,
Jim

wolviex · 14th December 2005, 08:33 AM

Thank you all. There is no doubt these are mostly parade weapons, especially the sabres, which are quite uncomfortabale, with thick and full of corals handles. Firearms seems to be more practical, thought beauty of these weapons (however very Turkish in style and splendour) are indicating their court significance. I found that many of pistols on pictures from Brian are a little in different style then sabres, knives or long firearms - with bigger, plain and different in shape corals. We can see they're described as Algerian. Brian - what is the description of sabres which are similiar to mine? Turkish or Algerian too?

I didn't say they are rare, I was just wondering about their "rarity or non-rarity"

. I believe, if in Poland we have few outstanding objects like these, then in Turkish museums you can probably find many and many of them. However, looking in google on the net I couldn't find many of them, maybe they have some individual names?

I found also that my sabre is a little unusual comparing to the other posted here. Among the corals you can find plain green and blue stones with engraved inscriptions (repeating Allah and Mohamed). Other sabres are without such feature.

All the best
Michal

13th December 2005, 10:47 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i'm afraid i row in the same boat as jens, so can only offer a hatful of images (you did mention the rarity and existence of similar pieces). i too believe these to be 'parade' pieces, although some are known to have older blades. i have always thought the indian equivalent are jade hilts daggers - same quality in blades but hilts move them away from the battlefield and into the court. hi jim Attached Images

13th December 2005, 10:50 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	more Attached Images

13th December 2005, 10:51 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	and more Attached Images

13th December 2005, 09:47 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Michal, Absolutely breathtaking weapons! Although many would consider such weapons ostentatious, one cannot deny the beauty of the work, and I especially admire the corals. It seems these corals are seen on a number of Ottoman produced weapons, and these were often produced as presentation weapons for influential Ottoman figures in the considerable detente between regions under their suzereignty and European powers in the latter 18th-early 19th centuries. In the display catalogue for the Richard Wagner collection privately published some years ago, such weapons are seen, one miguelet completely encrusted in corals, and presented by the Dey of Algiers in the early 19th c. It is noted these weapons were often crafted with turquoises, rubies and garnets in the taste of Russian and Polish courts, presumably in their favor. Dr. Zygulski in his essay "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Thier Provenance" (1979, Elgood, "Islamic Arms and Armour" p.213), notes that Poland developed an affinity for certain Turkish styles in about the second half of the 18th century, and Turkish arms had become exceedingly popular among the gentry from the many trophies acquired. It is suggested that many of these weapons were created in Istanbul, while many sabres with drooping quillons made in India of karabela form, and known as 'indyczka' (Indian like) were available. I would presume the dominantly coral items somewhat rare as that motif seems somewhat unusual, and that suggestion was made in a discussion some time ago, possibly by Mr. Wagner when discussing the Algerian miguelet in his collection. I am under the impression these sumptuous sabres, and such like decorated weapons in general, are presentation items of probably late 18th to mid 19th century, and likely were mounted in Turkey, and purchased for such use by influential Ottoman figures and thier courts. All the best, Jim

13th December 2005, 09:55 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Is the reason for the seed or teardrop shape of the corals known? Virtually every weapon decorated in this way that I have seen has the coral in particular with this shape.

14th December 2005, 01:05 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Wow!!! Incredible photos Brian! I have always been fascinated by coral, and to see such profuse application as on these weapons is amazing. Mark, I think the teardrop shape may pertain to the ancient Greek mythology that claims coral represents the drops of blood from the slain gorgon Medusa. Apparantly coral was esteemed in the East, and especially in India, where it held mysterious and sacred properties including of course protection from the evil eye. It is noted by Pliny that the Gauls used it in decorating weapons and helmets as well, and considerable trade was carried out in the Meditteranean with coral, much of it found along the North African coast. The amuletic value seems to derive considerably from the blood color and that it is virtually a living mineral derived from the sea. All best regards, Jim

14th December 2005, 08:33 AM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you all. There is no doubt these are mostly parade weapons, especially the sabres, which are quite uncomfortabale, with thick and full of corals handles. Firearms seems to be more practical, thought beauty of these weapons (however very Turkish in style and splendour) are indicating their court significance. I found that many of pistols on pictures from Brian are a little in different style then sabres, knives or long firearms - with bigger, plain and different in shape corals. We can see they're described as Algerian. Brian - what is the description of sabres which are similiar to mine? Turkish or Algerian too? I didn't say they are rare, I was just wondering about their "rarity or non-rarity" . I believe, if in Poland we have few outstanding objects like these, then in Turkish museums you can probably find many and many of them. However, looking in google on the net I couldn't find many of them, maybe they have some individual names? I found also that my sabre is a little unusual comparing to the other posted here. Among the corals you can find plain green and blue stones with engraved inscriptions (repeating Allah and Mohamed). Other sabres are without such feature. All the best Michal