Spear Heads: Whatizthey?

Shakethetrees · 14th April 2015, 04:22 AM

I think the currency theory is a little far fetched, as the currency "weapons" that I've examined are basically roughed out shapes, with any mounting hardware or fine fitting being non-existent.

Currency weapons are made by blacksmiths for use in a defined area. The drilling and tapping tools require tools for their manufacture that are not just found or made easily. They are fairly technical, with measurements and shaping needing more precision tooling.

If you've ever done any amount of threading (male or female) you know the difficulty, with chipped and broken taps and dies being commonplace.
Replacement for a primitive shop would be next to impossible!

I think they are either parade/ceremonial weapons coming from a fairly technical society.

Also, the bright red rust tells me that they are probably recent.

trenchwarfare · 14th April 2015, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I think the currency theory is a little far fetched, as the currency "weapons" that I've examined are basically roughed out shapes, with any mounting hardware or fine fitting being non-existent.

Currency weapons are made by blacksmiths for use in a defined area. The drilling and tapping tools require tools for their manufacture that are not just found or made easily. They are fairly technical, with measurements and shaping needing more precision tooling.

If you've ever done any amount of threading (male or female) you know the difficulty, with chipped and broken taps and dies being commonplace.
Replacement for a primitive shop would be next to impossible!

I think they are either parade/ceremonial weapons coming from a fairly technical society.

Also, the bright red rust tells me that they are probably recent.

I don't know where, or when they are from. They both exhibit very deep pitting. Old or new, I don't know. The red rust, only translates to recent neglect.

kronckew · 14th April 2015, 09:30 AM

the last half of 19c india had railroads, maintenance shops for the RR would have had the tools and machinery to service the locomotives, including lathes, milling machines, casting equipment etc. and trained local labour to use them. the first railroad was in 1853, by 1895 they were making their own rr locomotives and cars, and exporting them to the brits in africa.

even today the craftsmen of northern pakistan make precise working copies of modern (and older) firearms arms requiring precision components, as well as the ammunition to feed them, using quite primitive equipment. i wouldn't want to fire one myself, not trusting their heat treating skills that much, but their use against our own troops seems to indicate they work satisfactoraly.

Shakethetrees · 14th April 2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the last half of 19c india had railroads, maintenance shops for the RR would have had the tools and machinery to service the locomotives, including lathes, milling machines, casting equipment etc. and trained local labour to use them. the first railroad was in 1853, by 1895 they were making their own rr locomotives and cars, and exporting them to the brits in africa.

even today the craftsmen of northern pakistan make precise working copies of modern (and older) firearms arms requiring precision components, as well as the ammunition to feed them, using quite primitive equipment. i wouldn't want to fire one myself, not trusting their heat treating skills that much, but their use against our own troops seems to indicate they work satisfactoraly.

Right. But we were talking about currency weapons. By the time the railroads, workshops with capabilities to make enfield barrels out of rebar, etc. came along, coinage was in fashion, and, not too much later, paper money.

The point being that a society using a barter system involving metal objects rather than coinage is a bit further toward the "primitive" end of the development scale than one using coins as a medium of trade.

But, were deviating from the real discussion of the blades Trenchwarfare has presented. Modern threads for screws were developed by a group of engineers, different groups emerging in different countries. Go to Wikipedia, search "screw threads" and scroll down to something like "the history of standardization" or some such and you'll get a timeline of thread development. Also remember that the time between the adoption of a thread standard and actual implementation in far away locations could take years.

The earliest threads that evolved in blacksmith's work over centuries are easily distinguished from modern threads. Earliest taps were just filed by eye and are uneven and imprecise.

But, back again to the spear points. As interesting as they appear to be, the fasteners place them into the immediate pre-modern or modern era.

*Please don't make me find examples of primitive threads and do a side by side comparison!

drac2k · 14th April 2015, 03:21 PM

Go ahead and show us examples ;you know you want to! I would find it very informative.
I also don't think that they are African currency pieces or African, even though one could make an argument that they look like some of the Sudanese Mahdist weapons.Is the double pronged blade thickened at the end for armor piercing?
They could be Qajar Dynasty parade pieces ;in either case, be they Mahdist or Qajar items, they would fall in Shakethetrees's time line for machine made screws(I think).

Shakethetrees · 15th April 2015, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Go ahead and show us examples ;you know you want to! I would find it very informative.

Gimme a few days to get through some real world things. A recent close family member's passing has put a big hiccup in my life that I need to get through.

I will attempt to gather several examples side by side.

This would be an excellent topic of its own. Do we continue in Ethno, or European? Both are equally valid.

trenchwarfare · 22nd April 2015, 04:48 PM

Well, here they are again, all cleaned up. Any ideas as to what they are?

kronckew · 14th April 2015, 03:22 PM

no, shake the trees, i agree. if they are all essentially interchangeable, it's modern. which standard tho?

even those pashtun i mentioned in no. pakistan use modern taps and dies. they buy them on ebay! if indian, they'd be late 19c if not 20th at the oldest, too detailed for currency, too impractical for heavy combat use, or hunting. i still think parade items. possibly religious, that could be disassembled for easy transport & reassembled for the festival.

a macro closeup of the stud & the thread profile, as measurement of the tpi pitch/diameters would be a good discussion item. different thread profiles were popular at different times and places, so might help date it if it's not a run of the mill V thread. even there, if it is a complete or incomplete, or spaced may be interesting. is it a 60 degree american/euro metric or a 55 degree british whitworth? fascinating for an engineer, not so much for a spear collector. it would be fascinating if it were a double helix thread. took me a while to be able to cut one on a lathe. or maybe a triple? the mind bogles.

trenchwarfare · 14th April 2015, 07:03 PM

I checked the threads, not standard SAE. I was wondering, if these could be the creation of Bannerman's and Sons, or some other old dealer in weapons? They made all sorts of "trophies", and wall hanging apparatus out of weapons, and accouterments. Also, candle holders, fireplace sets, etc... Back then, these weren't precious collector's items. They were just another pile of rusty junk, from overseas.

22nd April 2015, 04:48 PM	#7
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Well, here they are again, all cleaned up. Any ideas as to what they are? Attached Images Last edited by trenchwarfare; 23rd April 2015 at 02:15 PM.

14th April 2015, 04:22 AM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I think the currency theory is a little far fetched, as the currency "weapons" that I've examined are basically roughed out shapes, with any mounting hardware or fine fitting being non-existent. Currency weapons are made by blacksmiths for use in a defined area. The drilling and tapping tools require tools for their manufacture that are not just found or made easily. They are fairly technical, with measurements and shaping needing more precision tooling. If you've ever done any amount of threading (male or female) you know the difficulty, with chipped and broken taps and dies being commonplace. Replacement for a primitive shop would be next to impossible! I think they are either parade/ceremonial weapons coming from a fairly technical society. Also, the bright red rust tells me that they are probably recent.

14th April 2015, 09:30 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	the last half of 19c india had railroads, maintenance shops for the RR would have had the tools and machinery to service the locomotives, including lathes, milling machines, casting equipment etc. and trained local labour to use them. the first railroad was in 1853, by 1895 they were making their own rr locomotives and cars, and exporting them to the brits in africa. even today the craftsmen of northern pakistan make precise working copies of modern (and older) firearms arms requiring precision components, as well as the ammunition to feed them, using quite primitive equipment. i wouldn't want to fire one myself, not trusting their heat treating skills that much, but their use against our own troops seems to indicate they work satisfactoraly.

14th April 2015, 03:21 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,283	Go ahead and show us examples ;you know you want to! I would find it very informative. I also don't think that they are African currency pieces or African, even though one could make an argument that they look like some of the Sudanese Mahdist weapons.Is the double pronged blade thickened at the end for armor piercing? They could be Qajar Dynasty parade pieces ;in either case, be they Mahdist or Qajar items, they would fall in Shakethetrees's time line for machine made screws(I think).

14th April 2015, 03:22 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	no, shake the trees, i agree. if they are all essentially interchangeable, it's modern. which standard tho? even those pashtun i mentioned in no. pakistan use modern taps and dies. they buy them on ebay! if indian, they'd be late 19c if not 20th at the oldest, too detailed for currency, too impractical for heavy combat use, or hunting. i still think parade items. possibly religious, that could be disassembled for easy transport & reassembled for the festival. a macro closeup of the stud & the thread profile, as measurement of the tpi pitch/diameters would be a good discussion item. different thread profiles were popular at different times and places, so might help date it if it's not a run of the mill V thread. even there, if it is a complete or incomplete, or spaced may be interesting. is it a 60 degree american/euro metric or a 55 degree british whitworth? fascinating for an engineer, not so much for a spear collector. it would be fascinating if it were a double helix thread. took me a while to be able to cut one on a lathe. or maybe a triple? the mind bogles.

14th April 2015, 07:03 PM	#9
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I checked the threads, not standard SAE. I was wondering, if these could be the creation of Bannerman's and Sons, or some other old dealer in weapons? They made all sorts of "trophies", and wall hanging apparatus out of weapons, and accouterments. Also, candle holders, fireplace sets, etc... Back then, these weren't precious collector's items. They were just another pile of rusty junk, from overseas.