TWO MATCHLOCK MUSKETS for ID and COMMENT

Norman McCormick · 7th April 2015, 05:39 PM

Hi Stu,
Indian matchlocks which I'm sure will look really neat after a little 'pampering'. More Ethno firearms have started to appear on the Forum recently which for me is a bonus so looking forward to further posts after aforementioned 'pampering'. Nice guns.

My Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 7th April 2015, 08:50 PM

Thanks for the comments....

Kubur.....nothing is achieved without some hard work....

Bandook.....While I agree that it is likely that these are Indian (or in the case of #1 maybe Indo/Arab), I do not think that they are Toradors. The shape is wrong IMHO. The Torador stock has a much more pronounced notch and (usually) a straight stock.

Norm......Thanks your kind comments. I will definitely post again once the TLC is complete. This may take a while as there is not always as much spare time as one would like to get these things done.
I have hopes that at least one of these will be a "shooter" though the bores look rather gnarly at present. Time will tell......

Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th April 2015, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for the comments....

Kubur.....nothing is achieved without some hard work....

Bandook.....While I agree that it is likely that these are Indian (or in the case of #1 maybe Indo/Arab), I do not think that they are Toradors. The shape is wrong IMHO. The Torador stock has a much more pronounced notch and (usually) a straight stock.

Norm......Thanks your kind comments. I will definitely post again once the TLC is complete. This may take a while as there is not always as much spare time as one would like to get these things done.
I have hopes that at least one of these will be a "shooter" though the bores look rather gnarly at present. Time will tell......

Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 Very interesting ... we used to call these parapet guns before we heard the term Torador which I think at least one of them is...Indian gear is so broad and I cant think of a nation that has more Ethnographic arms and Armour... I would call them variations on a Torador...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 10th April 2015, 10:10 PM

No further comments regarding origin???

rickystl · 11th April 2015, 07:30 PM

Hi Stu. Now you have a couple of Torador types to go with the Flask. Off hand, I would agree that you have one variation of a Torador, with the other being Indo/Arab. I'll try to do some research to see if we can pin this down a little closer.
An interesting feature on #1: It still retains it's vent pick and chain, and a curious metal piece with a cone shape on one end that I've only seen once before. I've never really known what the purpose is for the cone shaped lever. Hmmm. I have to guesses: 1). Possibly used to extinguish a lit match? Or 2). Maybe to carry a small amount of tinder to make fire to light the match?
Any other ideas? Rick.

rickystl · 11th April 2015, 08:08 PM

You mentioned that you might possibly consider making one into a shooter one day. I too have one in pretty good condition I plan on shooting one day. But it's three or four projects down the list. LOL

When I take the barrel off the stock it will hopefully solve a mystery I've had for many years. And that is: How are the breech plugs installed in these barrels?
I read somewhere that the breech plugs were "sweated" into the barrels and not threaded. Meaning that the breech plug was made slightly under sized. Then the barrel (only) was heated, the plug installed, and the barrel left to cool and shrink back to form a tight fit with the plug. Or possibly forge welded in place? But I really don't know. I really would not want to shoot one without a threaded breech plug. But I can have one made. We'll see when I get the barrel off.
Another curious thing about these barrels. Note the pronounced swelled area at the breech. I've read - and there's a YouTube vidio showing this - that the inside breech area of the barrel is shaped like a powder chamber. Similar to a European Hand Gonne. But I've never seen any real evidence of this. I'll have to try using my tiny drop light with a wire and see if I can tell. The barrel walls are so thick on these guns that I could just have the bore refurbished. But if there's a powder chamber, you would want to know exactly how much poser to fill the chamber, or it could be considered a bore obstruction while loading. Once I start on the project I'll post my findings.
Another interesting design feature of these guns is that the stocks are usually made in two pieces, or even three if the barrel is long enough.
Stu: Do keep us updated during your cleaning process when the time comes. Should be fun. Rick.

kahnjar1 · 11th April 2015, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu. Now you have a couple of Torador types to go with the Flask. Off hand, I would agree that you have one variation of a Torador, with the other being Indo/Arab. I'll try to do some research to see if we can pin this down a little closer.
An interesting feature on #1: It still retains it's vent pick and chain, and a curious metal piece with a cone shape on one end that I've only seen once before. I've never really known what the purpose is for the cone shaped lever. Hmmm. I have to guesses: 1). Possibly used to extinguish a lit match? Or 2). Maybe to carry a small amount of tinder to make fire to light the match?
Any other ideas? Rick.

Hi Rick,
I agree with your comments that #1 is probably Indo/Arab, and the other a Torador type.
The restoration and cleaning of #1 is well underway and I should be able to get things finished in the next week or so. Will post pics then.
As you say the vent pricker is still present. The cone shaped piece is for holding the hot end of the match. As it has no holes in it, I am thinking it is to extinguish a lighted match. I have attached a pic of a matchholder on my Omani matchlock. You can see it is a double one....one for extinguishing, and the vented one for holding a lighted match.
Now to your comment about the barrel. There is no evidence that I can see, that there is a breech plug on mine....certainly not a screwed one. So IF one exists then I agree that it is probably shrunk in. I have not heard about these having a powder chamber. I am aware that these do exist, but have only seen them in pistols with a screw off barrel, and never on long guns. Once I get the bore clean enough, I will have a good look with my bore light.
Keep you posted as things progress.
Stu
P.S. Meant to say that the stock is in one piece apart from the "insert" behind the match hammer.

rickystl · 12th April 2015, 03:45 PM

Hi Stu. That double match holder on your Omani gun is very neat !!! So yes, I agree that the cone shaped one on the Indian gun was likely used to extinguish the match.
If you get the barrel off one of the Indian guns, maybe you could post pics of it? I guess I shouldn't be so lazy and just take the barrel off mine.

I simply can not figure out the parts/process used to seal the breech.

If you go to YouTube and search under matchlock you will find the vidio of the Indian matchlock barrel where they cut the breech of one barrel to inspect it. And they test fire another barrel. Very neat vidio. But the don't mention how lthe breech was sealed. Anyway, between the both of us we will eventually figure it out.
Stocks: I've seen them with one piece stocks. Mine has a two-piece, but the barrel is 56" long. I once saw one that had a three-piece stock with the barrel being 72" long. LOL. Thanks again for your imput. Rick.

7th April 2015, 05:39 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Stu, Indian matchlocks which I'm sure will look really neat after a little 'pampering'. More Ethno firearms have started to appear on the Forum recently which for me is a bonus so looking forward to further posts after aforementioned 'pampering'. Nice guns. My Regards, Norman.

7th April 2015, 08:50 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Thanks for the comments.... Kubur.....nothing is achieved without some hard work.... Bandook.....While I agree that it is likely that these are Indian (or in the case of #1 maybe Indo/Arab), I do not think that they are Toradors. The shape is wrong IMHO. The Torador stock has a much more pronounced notch and (usually) a straight stock. Norm......Thanks your kind comments. I will definitely post again once the TLC is complete. This may take a while as there is not always as much spare time as one would like to get these things done. I have hopes that at least one of these will be a "shooter" though the bores look rather gnarly at present. Time will tell...... Stu

10th April 2015, 10:10 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	No further comments regarding origin???

11th April 2015, 07:30 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Stu. Now you have a couple of Torador types to go with the Flask. Off hand, I would agree that you have one variation of a Torador, with the other being Indo/Arab. I'll try to do some research to see if we can pin this down a little closer. An interesting feature on #1: It still retains it's vent pick and chain, and a curious metal piece with a cone shape on one end that I've only seen once before. I've never really known what the purpose is for the cone shaped lever. Hmmm. I have to guesses: 1). Possibly used to extinguish a lit match? Or 2). Maybe to carry a small amount of tinder to make fire to light the match? Any other ideas? Rick.

11th April 2015, 08:08 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	You mentioned that you might possibly consider making one into a shooter one day. I too have one in pretty good condition I plan on shooting one day. But it's three or four projects down the list. LOL When I take the barrel off the stock it will hopefully solve a mystery I've had for many years. And that is: How are the breech plugs installed in these barrels? I read somewhere that the breech plugs were "sweated" into the barrels and not threaded. Meaning that the breech plug was made slightly under sized. Then the barrel (only) was heated, the plug installed, and the barrel left to cool and shrink back to form a tight fit with the plug. Or possibly forge welded in place? But I really don't know. I really would not want to shoot one without a threaded breech plug. But I can have one made. We'll see when I get the barrel off. Another curious thing about these barrels. Note the pronounced swelled area at the breech. I've read - and there's a YouTube vidio showing this - that the inside breech area of the barrel is shaped like a powder chamber. Similar to a European Hand Gonne. But I've never seen any real evidence of this. I'll have to try using my tiny drop light with a wire and see if I can tell. The barrel walls are so thick on these guns that I could just have the bore refurbished. But if there's a powder chamber, you would want to know exactly how much poser to fill the chamber, or it could be considered a bore obstruction while loading. Once I start on the project I'll post my findings. Another interesting design feature of these guns is that the stocks are usually made in two pieces, or even three if the barrel is long enough. Stu: Do keep us updated during your cleaning process when the time comes. Should be fun. Rick.

12th April 2015, 03:45 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Stu. That double match holder on your Omani gun is very neat !!! So yes, I agree that the cone shaped one on the Indian gun was likely used to extinguish the match. If you get the barrel off one of the Indian guns, maybe you could post pics of it? I guess I shouldn't be so lazy and just take the barrel off mine. I simply can not figure out the parts/process used to seal the breech. If you go to YouTube and search under matchlock you will find the vidio of the Indian matchlock barrel where they cut the breech of one barrel to inspect it. And they test fire another barrel. Very neat vidio. But the don't mention how lthe breech was sealed. Anyway, between the both of us we will eventually figure it out. Stocks: I've seen them with one piece stocks. Mine has a two-piece, but the barrel is 56" long. I once saw one that had a three-piece stock with the barrel being 72" long. LOL. Thanks again for your imput. Rick.