Ottoman or Balkan carnelian belts.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Male or female belt - it is really a difficult question, because there is evidence of being worn both by men and women. In ethnic jewellery world a piece is normally either male or female...

There was a great and long discussion on the subject with a lot of facts on the ethnic jewellery forum

Tatyana, there is an ongoing discussion that is quite interesting here.
http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/photo/b...=msg_com_photo

I agree that it is unusual for a jewelry item to be worn by both a man and woman, also from two different cultures. It seems that these belts may have originated in the area of Albania, possibly as a womans belt, or at least they may have actually been worn by women in some point in time.

What is interesting is that the ruler of Egypt during the 1800s was an Ottoman soldier from Albania. Several Orientalist painters show Egyptian men wearing this type of belt. It is not hard to imagine an Albanian soldier or his wife selling an unused belt to an Ottoman while stationed in Egypt.

There is a carnelian belt that supposedly is in the Coptic Museum, Cairo Egypt, so somehow at least one of these belts ended up in Egypt, unfortunately there is no discription to go with the picture.

I just posted this here on the off chance that a forum member might have some additional information on the subject.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Additional information:

http://mystarseed.blogspot.de/2015/0...ski.html#moreM

[Oliver Pinchot]

These belts are Balkan, and were produced primarily during the mid-19th century. They were originally intended as a woman's accoutrement.

They tend to be of very uniform workmanship, indicating they were produced in a particular center or centers. The mounts are brass or bronze and are cast, pierced, and occasionally simply engraved; these are among the least expensive of materials and techniques for producing jewelry. Carnelians were sold in strands of beads from Bohemia to Beijing, and were likewise among the most economical choices for self-adornment. Grinding and polishing them to shape (flat, in this case) is also a relatively simple procedure.

By comparison with other Balkan jewelry and accoutrements, their level of crafting implies that such belts were made to allow members of a median social strata to achieve a required level of status.

Regarding Orientalist paintings as reference materials: though there are exceptions, almost none of the Orientalists painted from life. While the details of individual weapons and other objects can be very useful, it would be wise to approach the context cautiously. Race, ethnicity, architecture, locale, costume and the particular juxtaposition of a group of arms in a given painting are almost entirely unreliable, since they were usually composed by the artist in order to achieve an aesthetic, rather than historical, sensibility.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Regarding Orientalist paintings as reference materials: though there are exceptions, almost none of the Orientalists painted from life. While the details of individual weapons and other objects can be very useful, it would be wise to approach the context cautiously. Race, ethnicity, architecture, locale, costume and the particular juxtaposition of a group of arms in a given painting are almost entirely unreliable, since they were usually composed by the artist in order to achieve an aesthetic, rather than historical, sensibility.

Oliver, my research on the subject of the possible use of the carnelian belts in Khedival Egypt shows that many Orientalist painters actually traveled to the Middle East, especially Egypt. Many went out of their way to accurately represent what they saw, of course there many Orientalist painters but I can only find 5 that painted men wearing these carnelian belts.

I have a Pinterest page with all 12 painting by the 5 artists which show these belts, anyone can check the histories of the individual painters and see if they did travel to the Middle East or not. I have included all of the known photos of women wearing these belts as well.

While it is known that these were a womens belt in the Balkans, the question is whether a man was ever seen wearing one of these carnelian belts in Khedival Egypt or did one of the Orientalist painters suddenly just start painting a man wearing one of these belts for no reason other than he liked the belt.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-and-european/

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Additional information:

http://mystarseed.blogspot.de/2015/0...ski.html#moreM

Tatyana, thanks for remembering this thread and for posting this great link, while it does not answer my questions I am still interested in other aspects of these belts.
,

[Kubur]

Just to complement the previous discussion, we have a lot of examples of these belts used by men...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

There is a carnelian belt that supposedly is in the Coptic Museum, Cairo Egypt, so somehow at least one of these belts ended up in Egypt, unfortunately there is no discription to go with the picture.

I just posted this here on the off chance that a forum member might have some additional information on the subject.

If these belts ended in the balkans, Egypt and North Africa (see the paintings)
then maybe these belts are Ottoman!
Do you know any example from Turkey?

Best,
Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There are many examples of Eastern European photographs showing women also wearing carnelian belts (jakicar). SEE https://www.pinterest.co.uk/worldant...opean/?lp=true

[Kubur]

Well Oliver was right.
All the male examples are paintings and female are photographs.
Even the Montenegrin example doesnt show carnelian belts, look at this painted postcard (photo)...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well Oliver was right.
All the male examples are paintings and female are photographs.
Even the Montenegrin example doesnt show carnelian belts, look at this painted postcard (photo)...

Kuber, in the Balkans they were a womans belt. At some point in time they started to be painted and attributed as a mans belt. My question still is whether an orienalist painter ever saw an Ottoman man / Khedival Egyptian man wearing one or did some painter just decide it was a mans belt when first seeing one and started the whole "mans belt" controversy.