Catalogue of my collection

nechesh · 12th December 2005, 01:35 AM

Hi Kai Wee. Sorry to take so long to respond. I perhaps responded too absolutely on you web page. I am sure there are many who would agree with you that this hilt is a representation of a raksasa. I certainly have no arguement with you that it is indeed a disguised figure, i'm just not prepared to name all representational figurative hilts as raksasa. Certainly most of the major hilt forms are based on some abstraction of a figurative form. Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa? I can clearly see the figure, but what you see as fangs could just as easily be facial hair or something else all together. The eyes are clear, but they certainly don't bulge in the demonic way of the standard form of raksasa. I also wonder how much of the floral motif is a response to Islamic law. I say this because i have also seen many of these floral hilts where the features aren't all that abstract leading me to the opinion that the floral motif is not necessarily meant to obscure the figure as much as embellish it in a locally decorative way. These hilts make me think of the European representations of the Green Man, making me wonder if they are not meant to be some kind of nature deity. Just a thought. To my mind these 'Floral Men" don't seem to project the same kind of menacing energy the that the more obvious raksasa do. They seem much more still, serene, at peace. That is, of course, only my subjective opinion.

BluErf · 12th December 2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa?

That's the question I have too, even for the 'literal' or 'realistic' forms.

But anyway, the rashaksa form has been around since the 16th century, according to K. Jensen's book. (See attached pic from the Dutch Museum. Sorry, can't find the Dutch Museum's URL in my bookmark page).

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

The hilts covered in floral motifs, based on my observation, are no where as old. Most in the books were attributed to 18th or 19th century. And some of the rashaksa hilts we see floating around the market are really ancient looking, though I would admit that realistic rashaksa hilts are still being made today.

As for the floral motifs being embellishments, I thought it is no longer mere embellishment when it replaces vital features such as the eyes, nose, mouth, arms.

BluErf · 12th December 2005, 11:13 AM

In K. Jensen's book, there were also hilt forms representing Siva Bhairava at around the same period (16th - 17th century), with different poses. One hilt in the book referred to Ravana. There were also a couple of highly abstract hilts in the books which Jensen referred to as 'stylized raksasa'. They are different from my example, but tentalizingly similar in that they are all covered with vegetal motifs, and the head is quite alike.

I'll try to take pictures from the book and post some time this week.

nechesh · 12th December 2005, 01:35 PM

There are reports from Chinese contacts as early as th 14th and 15th century that speak of demon hilted daggers. Whether or not these were actually meant to be raksasa we will probably never know. I am not sure how far back the floral figure goes. As with all writings on keris i think we can only look to Kerner as a pointer, not the final word on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

As for the floral motifs being embellishments, I thought it is no longer mere embellishment when it replaces vital features such as the eyes, nose, mouth, arms.

Yes, i would agree, it is no longer an embellisment at that point, it is a form.
What do you make of hilts where there is much floral embellishment, but the face, eyes, nose and all is clearly delineated. These hilts are obviously not trying to hide the fact that the hilt is a figure, but still uses great amounts of floral embellishment that is typical to that area.

BluErf · 13th December 2005, 01:13 PM

Yep, all books on kerises/krises provide pointers which we have to read with a pinch of salt sometimes. But the book I was referring to was written by Karsten Jensen, not Martin Kerner.

nechesh · 13th December 2005, 02:05 PM

Oops!

Yeah, i've got Kerner on the mind because i am about to receive one of his books. But you are right, they ALL must be taken with a grain of salt.

simatua · 13th December 2005, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the invitation BlueErf ! (to join the kampungnet and place photo's from my collection.)
I managed myself into the site from kampungnet.
Got last weeknd a digital camara from my wife. I started already a try out of my collection on kampungnet.

Someone ??? Did a great job for me on the outside of the album !!!
I dont know who did it.? thanks a very very ....very lot !!!

This coming weekend i will take good pictures and place a lot more it on the site.
hoping everyone can enjoy and learning from eachother.

greets

Alam Shah · 14th December 2005, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simatua

Thanks for the invitation BlueErf ! (to join the kampungnet and place photo's from my collection.)
I managed myself into the site from kampungnet.
Got last weeknd a digital camara from my wife. I started already a try out of my collection on kampungnet.

Someone ??? Did a great job for me on the outside of the album !!!
I dont know who did it.? thanks a very very ....very lot !!!

This coming weekend i will take good pictures and place a lot more it on the site.
hoping everyone can enjoy and learning from each other.

greets

That's the spirit.

Welcome aboard. Lovely Karno Tinanding keris...
At this point, I would like to invite everyone to create a personal keris gallery at kampungnet. May we learn and enjoy each other's pieces.

13th December 2005, 06:48 PM	#7
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	website cataloque on kampungnet Thanks for the invitation BlueErf ! (to join the kampungnet and place photo's from my collection.) I managed myself into the site from kampungnet. Got last weeknd a digital camara from my wife. I started already a try out of my collection on kampungnet. Someone ??? Did a great job for me on the outside of the album !!! I dont know who did it.? thanks a very very ....very lot !!! This coming weekend i will take good pictures and place a lot more it on the site. hoping everyone can enjoy and learning from eachother. greets

12th December 2005, 01:35 AM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Kai Wee. Sorry to take so long to respond. I perhaps responded too absolutely on you web page. I am sure there are many who would agree with you that this hilt is a representation of a raksasa. I certainly have no arguement with you that it is indeed a disguised figure, i'm just not prepared to name all representational figurative hilts as raksasa. Certainly most of the major hilt forms are based on some abstraction of a figurative form. Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa? I can clearly see the figure, but what you see as fangs could just as easily be facial hair or something else all together. The eyes are clear, but they certainly don't bulge in the demonic way of the standard form of raksasa. I also wonder how much of the floral motif is a response to Islamic law. I say this because i have also seen many of these floral hilts where the features aren't all that abstract leading me to the opinion that the floral motif is not necessarily meant to obscure the figure as much as embellish it in a locally decorative way. These hilts make me think of the European representations of the Green Man, making me wonder if they are not meant to be some kind of nature deity. Just a thought. To my mind these 'Floral Men" don't seem to project the same kind of menacing energy the that the more obvious raksasa do. They seem much more still, serene, at peace. That is, of course, only my subjective opinion.

12th December 2005, 11:13 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	In K. Jensen's book, there were also hilt forms representing Siva Bhairava at around the same period (16th - 17th century), with different poses. One hilt in the book referred to Ravana. There were also a couple of highly abstract hilts in the books which Jensen referred to as 'stylized raksasa'. They are different from my example, but tentalizingly similar in that they are all covered with vegetal motifs, and the head is quite alike. I'll try to take pictures from the book and post some time this week.

13th December 2005, 01:13 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yep, all books on kerises/krises provide pointers which we have to read with a pinch of salt sometimes. But the book I was referring to was written by Karsten Jensen, not Martin Kerner.

13th December 2005, 02:05 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Oops! Yeah, i've got Kerner on the mind because i am about to receive one of his books. But you are right, they ALL must be taken with a grain of salt.