Sword identification

JesseS · 10th February 2015, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Have you visited this thread, Jesse ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453

Thanks, Fernando. Do you think my "orb and cross" is a Solingen mark, then? It seems similar to this group of Solingen marks:

PS...sorry for photo quality. That's the best I can do. The markings are worn and quite faint.

M ELEY · 10th February 2015, 04:11 PM

The history of the piece makes sense. The Barbary Corsairs were 'just across the way' from the Iberian Peninsula, with trade routes and potential captures from Spanish ships. The blade is from a broadsword (?), so we can assume the original hilt was probably that of a bilbo (more likely) or perhaps cuphilt, as in the types seen in Peterson's and Brinkerhoff's books.

Mark

JesseS · 10th February 2015, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

The history of the piece makes sense. The Barbary Corsairs were 'just across the way' from the Iberian Peninsula, with trade routes and potential captures from Spanish ships. The blade is from a broadsword (?), so we can assume the original hilt was probably that of a bilbo (more likely) or perhaps cuphilt, as in the types seen in Peterson's and Brinkerhoff's books.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. I've been researching Decatur's actions in the First Barbary War. In late 1803 he was involved in the capture of the Tripolitan warship "Mastico" and its captain Mustapha Rais who surrendered, and I would like to imagine that this is Mustapha Rais' sword surrendered to Decatur. Decatur later sailed the captured "Mastico" (renamed "Intrepid") into Tripoli in disguise and destroyed the captured "Philadelphia" in a daring raid that made him famous.

Then in August 1804 he boarded and captured two Tripolitan gunboats in hand-to-hand combat. On one of the boats he fought with the captain, who nearly killed him, but while they wrestled, Decatur was able to reach his pistol in his pocket and cock and fire it, killing his opponent. Possible that the sword was taken in one of these encounters as well.

M ELEY · 11th February 2015, 03:34 PM

Hello Jesse,
You have a very interesting sword and would add that you should keep all correspondence with the original owners, any records they have proving provenance, etc. Stephen Decatur was a true American hero whose exploits at Tripoli captured the attention of the whole world (it was the start of the fall of the Barbary Corsairs and even Lord Horatio Nelson made comments on Decatur's bravery).

The thread you had a link to was a Scottish baskethilt with a Spanish-type blade. The problem with trying to identify a sword sans hilt can be very confusing. Spanish and Portuguese swords of the 17th-18th c. had the classic saying, but that motto was often inscribed on imported German-made blades for the Spanish market. Spanish swords were often diamond-shaped/six-sided, but again, Solingen often reproduced this pattern for export. Your blade seems to my inept eyes to be a true Spanish type, based on decoration/inscription, but still might be Germanic in origin. In any case, it is extremely rare to see that motto on anything other than Spanish types (bilbos, cuphilts), such as the Scottish sword in that thread. Being that yours comes from Morocco or similar port and bares the Spanish blade, I surmise that the hilt was a bilbo or cuphilt. I have in my collection a very similar bladed bilbo (the inscription barely legible and from an earlier sword), the hilt of classic 'colonial Spanish' form, with primitive braised pas d'ane, kidney-shaped guard from another sword, wood hilt with crude wire wrap, all 18th c.

As a pirate enthusiast, I can't tell you how much this sword means to fellow collectors, but provenance is everything! Keep your receipts and correspondence! The hilt found on the piece does appear to be the typical early to mid-19th c. dress style hilt.
Mark

JesseS · 11th February 2015, 04:12 PM

Thanks, Mark. I have a letter from one of General Swartwout's descendants documenting the sword's provenance, plus a letter written to Gen Swartwout by one of his associates from Gibraltar in 1815 mentioning the imminent arrival of Decatur's squadron in Gibraltar. I will definitely keep these safe!

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2015, 10:19 PM

Mark is of course spot on in his assessment and observations here, and we have always had a passion for these 'Spanish motto' blades. As he notes, this blade was probably in a Spanish 'bilbo' which was a rapier like heavy arming sword used in the Spanish colonies in the 18th into the 19th centuries.
These Bilbo type swords were quite common in Spain's colonies on Mexico's east coast, Cuba, Florida and other ports of call in the "Spanish Main' . Naturally the Moroccan littoral was included in these locations, so not at all surprising to see this very nice blade in this context.

These 'Spanish Motto' blades were indeed made in Solingen for Spain to export to her colonies, and entire shipments of these blades have been found en masse. The 'flourish' incorporating the cross and orb would be part of the application added in Solingen, but these blades be ascribed to any particular maker. I believe they were contractual and likely completed by several makes and inscribers.

As Mark has well put.....provenance is everything..and this example is outstanding!!!

M ELEY · 1st April 2015, 02:26 AM

Hello Cap'n Jim! Great to hear from you! I should have known that this one would catch your attention! What do you think of the history? Amazing pirate piece!

JesseS is probably mad at me, as I said I'd post a pic of one of mine. Still waiting for the wife (who's computer-savvy) to post the pics I took with her phone. In any case, I'll try again in the next couple of days! Just to warn you, Jesse, as I stated, the motto on mine is all but rubbed off and almost impossible to read. I used to have another sword (now sold) with a solid marking.

10th February 2015, 04:11 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,166	The history of the piece makes sense. The Barbary Corsairs were 'just across the way' from the Iberian Peninsula, with trade routes and potential captures from Spanish ships. The blade is from a broadsword (?), so we can assume the original hilt was probably that of a bilbo (more likely) or perhaps cuphilt, as in the types seen in Peterson's and Brinkerhoff's books. Mark

11th February 2015, 03:34 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,166	Hello Jesse, You have a very interesting sword and would add that you should keep all correspondence with the original owners, any records they have proving provenance, etc. Stephen Decatur was a true American hero whose exploits at Tripoli captured the attention of the whole world (it was the start of the fall of the Barbary Corsairs and even Lord Horatio Nelson made comments on Decatur's bravery). The thread you had a link to was a Scottish baskethilt with a Spanish-type blade. The problem with trying to identify a sword sans hilt can be very confusing. Spanish and Portuguese swords of the 17th-18th c. had the classic saying, but that motto was often inscribed on imported German-made blades for the Spanish market. Spanish swords were often diamond-shaped/six-sided, but again, Solingen often reproduced this pattern for export. Your blade seems to my inept eyes to be a true Spanish type, based on decoration/inscription, but still might be Germanic in origin. In any case, it is extremely rare to see that motto on anything other than Spanish types (bilbos, cuphilts), such as the Scottish sword in that thread. Being that yours comes from Morocco or similar port and bares the Spanish blade, I surmise that the hilt was a bilbo or cuphilt. I have in my collection a very similar bladed bilbo (the inscription barely legible and from an earlier sword), the hilt of classic 'colonial Spanish' form, with primitive braised pas d'ane, kidney-shaped guard from another sword, wood hilt with crude wire wrap, all 18th c. As a pirate enthusiast, I can't tell you how much this sword means to fellow collectors, but provenance is everything! Keep your receipts and correspondence! The hilt found on the piece does appear to be the typical early to mid-19th c. dress style hilt. Mark

11th February 2015, 04:12 PM	#5
JesseS Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 5	Thanks, Mark. I have a letter from one of General Swartwout's descendants documenting the sword's provenance, plus a letter written to Gen Swartwout by one of his associates from Gibraltar in 1815 mentioning the imminent arrival of Decatur's squadron in Gibraltar. I will definitely keep these safe!

30th March 2015, 10:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Mark is of course spot on in his assessment and observations here, and we have always had a passion for these 'Spanish motto' blades. As he notes, this blade was probably in a Spanish 'bilbo' which was a rapier like heavy arming sword used in the Spanish colonies in the 18th into the 19th centuries. These Bilbo type swords were quite common in Spain's colonies on Mexico's east coast, Cuba, Florida and other ports of call in the "Spanish Main' . Naturally the Moroccan littoral was included in these locations, so not at all surprising to see this very nice blade in this context. These 'Spanish Motto' blades were indeed made in Solingen for Spain to export to her colonies, and entire shipments of these blades have been found en masse. The 'flourish' incorporating the cross and orb would be part of the application added in Solingen, but these blades be ascribed to any particular maker. I believe they were contractual and likely completed by several makes and inscribers. As Mark has well put.....provenance is everything..and this example is outstanding!!!

1st April 2015, 02:26 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,166	Hello Cap'n Jim! Great to hear from you! I should have known that this one would catch your attention! What do you think of the history? Amazing pirate piece! JesseS is probably mad at me, as I said I'd post a pic of one of mine. Still waiting for the wife (who's computer-savvy) to post the pics I took with her phone. In any case, I'll try again in the next couple of days! Just to warn you, Jesse, as I stated, the motto on mine is all but rubbed off and almost impossible to read. I used to have another sword (now sold) with a solid marking.