Catalogue of my collection

simatua · 8th December 2005, 09:48 PM

here are some good kerises online!

Saw the site before, but then my computer was to slow.
really....really nice !! keep it up !

Saw one of your kerises mentioned as lawe saukel (lawe satukel)
I thought for myself this was a lawe satukel
-attached a photo from my own collection-

greetings

BluErf · 8th December 2005, 11:58 PM

Hi Simatua,

The pamor on you keris is very nicely executed. In fact, I was just musing about when I would be able to get a keris with pamor like that yesterday! What coincidence.

I've added pics of another Solonese keris to the album (pg 3).

Btw, you are most welcome to register at kampungnet. I believe you would be able to have your own album and share pictures of your collection with everyone! Our fellow forumnite, Alam Shah, can help you with the registration.

nechesh · 9th December 2005, 01:12 AM

Thanks for sharing Kai Wee. You have some nice pieces there, especially when it comes to fine examples of various forms of dress. Some exquisite carving there!

I left a message on one of your ukirans that i am sure you will argue with.

VANDOO · 9th December 2005, 03:13 AM

I ENJOYED LOOKING THRU YOUR COLLECTION, A VERY PLESANT THING TO DO ON A COLD SNOWEY NIGHT.

I ESPECIALLY LIKE YOUR MORO KRIS WITH THE FOSSIL ELEPHANT TOOTH POMEL AND THE KINGFISHER KERIS. THANKS FOR SHAREING.

BluErf · 9th December 2005, 01:43 PM

Hey guys, thanks for your support!

And nechesh, yes, you certainly know me.

I'd like to hear your opinion on what the hilt represents.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

I thought all the major keris hilt forms (maybe except for the jawa demam) are representations of deities and supernatural beings derived from animism, Buddhism, Hinduism and the Hindu epics (Ramayana, Mahabharata).

I have read that in many parts of Southeast Asia, the coming of Islam did not result in the outright abandonment of old beliefs, and fear/respect of old deities, spirits and supernatural beings. Thus, in order not to breach the tenets of Islam, and yet not offend/discard the old deities and spirits, some carvers found ways to hide features of the original image in vegetal motifs. If you look carefully at the hilt, you can actually see 2 eyes (2 'c's beneath the crown), a nose (the 'double-hooked' oblong shape), and 2 fangs (2 'c's flanking the lower ends of the nose).

Also, if you look at the other pictures of this hilt, you can see the 'ear-covers'* on the side of the head. This 'ear-cover' goes all the way down from the side of the head to the shoulder. This part of the headdress/crown is commonly worn by the 'literal' rashaksa hilts.

So my argument would be that it is a rashaksa, and it evolved from the 'literal' rashaksa forms under the influence of Islam, which forbids the depiction of idols.

Actually, at this point, I want to pose a question to all forumnites reading this -- we always refer to these sort of hilts as representations of rashaksas, but do any these sort of hilts represent other types of figures other than rashaksas?

* - sorry, I do not know the term for this part of the headdress, but you can see the pierced through part on both sides of the neck.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

nechesh · 12th December 2005, 01:35 AM

Hi Kai Wee. Sorry to take so long to respond. I perhaps responded too absolutely on you web page. I am sure there are many who would agree with you that this hilt is a representation of a raksasa. I certainly have no arguement with you that it is indeed a disguised figure, i'm just not prepared to name all representational figurative hilts as raksasa. Certainly most of the major hilt forms are based on some abstraction of a figurative form. Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa? I can clearly see the figure, but what you see as fangs could just as easily be facial hair or something else all together. The eyes are clear, but they certainly don't bulge in the demonic way of the standard form of raksasa. I also wonder how much of the floral motif is a response to Islamic law. I say this because i have also seen many of these floral hilts where the features aren't all that abstract leading me to the opinion that the floral motif is not necessarily meant to obscure the figure as much as embellish it in a locally decorative way. These hilts make me think of the European representations of the Green Man, making me wonder if they are not meant to be some kind of nature deity. Just a thought. To my mind these 'Floral Men" don't seem to project the same kind of menacing energy the that the more obvious raksasa do. They seem much more still, serene, at peace. That is, of course, only my subjective opinion.

BluErf · 12th December 2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa?

That's the question I have too, even for the 'literal' or 'realistic' forms.

But anyway, the rashaksa form has been around since the 16th century, according to K. Jensen's book. (See attached pic from the Dutch Museum. Sorry, can't find the Dutch Museum's URL in my bookmark page).

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

The hilts covered in floral motifs, based on my observation, are no where as old. Most in the books were attributed to 18th or 19th century. And some of the rashaksa hilts we see floating around the market are really ancient looking, though I would admit that realistic rashaksa hilts are still being made today.

As for the floral motifs being embellishments, I thought it is no longer mere embellishment when it replaces vital features such as the eyes, nose, mouth, arms.

8th December 2005, 09:48 PM	#1
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	wow! here are some good kerises online! Saw the site before, but then my computer was to slow. really....really nice !! keep it up ! Saw one of your kerises mentioned as lawe saukel (lawe satukel) I thought for myself this was a lawe satukel -attached a photo from my own collection- greetings Attached Images

8th December 2005, 11:58 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Simatua, The pamor on you keris is very nicely executed. In fact, I was just musing about when I would be able to get a keris with pamor like that yesterday! What coincidence. I've added pics of another Solonese keris to the album (pg 3). Btw, you are most welcome to register at kampungnet. I believe you would be able to have your own album and share pictures of your collection with everyone! Our fellow forumnite, Alam Shah, can help you with the registration.

9th December 2005, 01:12 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for sharing Kai Wee. You have some nice pieces there, especially when it comes to fine examples of various forms of dress. Some exquisite carving there! I left a message on one of your ukirans that i am sure you will argue with.

9th December 2005, 03:13 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I ENJOYED LOOKING THRU YOUR COLLECTION, A VERY PLESANT THING TO DO ON A COLD SNOWEY NIGHT. I ESPECIALLY LIKE YOUR MORO KRIS WITH THE FOSSIL ELEPHANT TOOTH POMEL AND THE KINGFISHER KERIS. THANKS FOR SHAREING.

9th December 2005, 01:43 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey guys, thanks for your support! And nechesh, yes, you certainly know me. I'd like to hear your opinion on what the hilt represents. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php I thought all the major keris hilt forms (maybe except for the jawa demam) are representations of deities and supernatural beings derived from animism, Buddhism, Hinduism and the Hindu epics (Ramayana, Mahabharata). I have read that in many parts of Southeast Asia, the coming of Islam did not result in the outright abandonment of old beliefs, and fear/respect of old deities, spirits and supernatural beings. Thus, in order not to breach the tenets of Islam, and yet not offend/discard the old deities and spirits, some carvers found ways to hide features of the original image in vegetal motifs. If you look carefully at the hilt, you can actually see 2 eyes (2 'c's beneath the crown), a nose (the 'double-hooked' oblong shape), and 2 fangs (2 'c's flanking the lower ends of the nose). Also, if you look at the other pictures of this hilt, you can see the 'ear-covers'* on the side of the head. This 'ear-cover' goes all the way down from the side of the head to the shoulder. This part of the headdress/crown is commonly worn by the 'literal' rashaksa hilts. So my argument would be that it is a rashaksa, and it evolved from the 'literal' rashaksa forms under the influence of Islam, which forbids the depiction of idols. Actually, at this point, I want to pose a question to all forumnites reading this -- we always refer to these sort of hilts as representations of rashaksas, but do any these sort of hilts represent other types of figures other than rashaksas? * - sorry, I do not know the term for this part of the headdress, but you can see the pierced through part on both sides of the neck. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

12th December 2005, 01:35 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Kai Wee. Sorry to take so long to respond. I perhaps responded too absolutely on you web page. I am sure there are many who would agree with you that this hilt is a representation of a raksasa. I certainly have no arguement with you that it is indeed a disguised figure, i'm just not prepared to name all representational figurative hilts as raksasa. Certainly most of the major hilt forms are based on some abstraction of a figurative form. Does that mean that they are all intended to be raksasa? These floral motif figures have been around for some time on the northern costal region of Jawa (Pasisir) and Madura. My question is, why are they necessarily raksasa? I can clearly see the figure, but what you see as fangs could just as easily be facial hair or something else all together. The eyes are clear, but they certainly don't bulge in the demonic way of the standard form of raksasa. I also wonder how much of the floral motif is a response to Islamic law. I say this because i have also seen many of these floral hilts where the features aren't all that abstract leading me to the opinion that the floral motif is not necessarily meant to obscure the figure as much as embellish it in a locally decorative way. These hilts make me think of the European representations of the Green Man, making me wonder if they are not meant to be some kind of nature deity. Just a thought. To my mind these 'Floral Men" don't seem to project the same kind of menacing energy the that the more obvious raksasa do. They seem much more still, serene, at peace. That is, of course, only my subjective opinion.