Turkish flintlock pistol nicely decorated

estcrh · 2nd February 2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi ESTCRH

The way that the stock is carved , and the false wooden ramrod and also the barrel is typical for Balkan pistol ,see the pictures from a second pistol from my collection.
Best
CERJAK

Cerjak, how do your pistols differ from typical non-Balkan Ottoman pistols? From what I have seen Ottoman and Balkan pistols generally have a false ramrod, is there some sort of noticable difference in that aspect. Is there anything else that would be noticeably different between the two types that you can point out.

Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans.

estcrh · 2nd February 2015, 12:19 PM

Cerjak, here are a pair of pistols which I have been told are Ottoman, with your two pistols on underneath for a comparison. Are there elements on mine which would identify them as being Balkan or non-Balkan?

Kubur · 2nd February 2015, 01:27 PM

Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans.

The second one is Greek.

If I may I suggest two books

Elgood, Firearms of the Islamic world
Elgood, The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period

Our French friend is right, most these pistols are from the Balkans.
But you are right also, the limit is very thin, it's like some daggers or swords...
Anyway these weapons were produced for the Ottoman market!

Kubur

estcrh · 2nd February 2015, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans.

The second one is Greek.

Kuber, you may be right, but the owner (Met Museum) describes it thus>

Quote:

Flintlock Pistol
Date: 18th century
Culture: Balkan, lock and barrel European (probably French)
Medium: Steel, silver, gold
Dimensions: L. 20 1/2 in. (57.1 cm); L. of barrel 13 1/2 in. (34.3 cm); L. of lock 4 5/8 in. (11.8 cm); Cal. .65 in. (16.5 mm); Wt. 2 lbs 12 oz. (1304.1 g)
Classification: Firearms-Pistols-Flintlock
Credit Line: Rogers Fund, 1958
Accession Number: 58.56

but they have been wrong before or maybe they just lump all nearby countries together as "Balkan".

BANDOOK · 3rd February 2015, 06:57 AM

HERE IS MY TURKISH OTTOMON PISTOL AND A ALBANIAN MISQUELET RAT TAILED PISTOL,DURING OTTOMON RULE IN ALBANIA
REGARDS RAJESH

Kubur · 3rd February 2015, 07:24 AM

Kuber, you may be right, but the owner (Met Museum) describes it thus

Hi
Museums are always wrong, please, see previous posts!

Cerjak · 2nd February 2015, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Cerjak, how do your pistols differ from typical non-Balkan Ottoman pistols? From what I have seen Ottoman and Balkan pistols generally have a false ramrod, is there some sort of noticable difference in that aspect. Is there anything else that would be noticeably different between the two types that you can point out.

Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans.

Dear Estchr
Sorry , I have mixed by mistake my answer and as I wrote in the tittle for this pistol ,my guess is that they are Turkish ( Ottoman) or may be made for the Ottoman market.

Best
CERJAK

Cerjak · 2nd February 2015, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Cerjak, how do your pistols differ from typical non-Balkan Ottoman pistols? From what I have seen Ottoman and Balkan pistols generally have a false ramrod, is there some sort of noticable difference in that aspect. Is there anything else that would be noticeably different between the two types that you can point out.

Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans.

Estcrh
Most of the pistol said to be from the Balkan ( Greece Albania) I have seen was with a partial or full stock encased in metal plates and also some time a part of barrel . One perfect example is the traditional Albanian pistol , known as 'rat tail'. At last It seems for me that the miquelet lock is more common for pistols from ( Greece Albania) .
I hope that you could understand me as my English is not so good.

Best
CERJAK

Cerjak · 2nd February 2015, 03:25 PM

ONE MORE OTTOMAN PISTOL

Cerjak · 2nd February 2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

ONE MORE OTTOMAN PISTOL

MORE PIC

trenchwarfare · 2nd February 2015, 05:16 PM

I have a question... What's the point of a dummy ram rod? I had one of these once, and thought it a tourista replica, because of having a carved rod. That would make loading, problematic. Unless they carried a complete loading kit.

estcrh · 2nd February 2015, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

I have a question... What's the point of a dummy ram rod? I had one of these once, and thought it a tourista replica, because of having a carved rod. That would make loading, problematic. Unless they carried a complete loading kit.

I am not sure why they bothered to make it look like Ottoman pistols actually had a ram rod (suma or haribi), from what I understand the shorter firearms such as pistols and blunderbuss would have a metal ram rod that could be carried so as not to become lost easily, such as when on horseback.

trenchwarfare · 2nd February 2015, 05:35 PM

Makes sense. Guess they hadn't come up with the captive rammer, as in most western cavalry muzzle loaders.

estcrh · 3rd February 2015, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Estcrh
Most of the pistol said to be from the Balkan ( Greece Albania) I have seen was with a partial or full stock encased in metal plates and also some time a part of barrel . One perfect example is the traditional Albanian pistol , known as 'rat tail'. At last It seems for me that the miquelet lock is more common for pistols from ( Greece Albania) .
I hope that you could understand me as my English is not so good.

Best
CERJAK

Cerjak, your English is quite understandable. I also have seen many pistols described as "Balkan" with a full or partially metal encased stock. My question is about the type that you originally posted, what in particular makes one of the that does not have a metal encased stock a "Balkan" pistol.

Here is the typical description of what areas encompass the "Balkans".

Quote:

The Balkan Peninsula, popularly referred to as the Balkans, is a geographical region of Southeast Europe. The region takes its name from the Balkan Mountains that stretch from the east of Serbia to the Black Sea at the east of Bulgaria.

The region is inhabited by Albanians, Bulgarians, Bosniaks, Croats, Gorani, Greeks, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenes, Romanians, Aromanians, Turks, and other ethnic groups which present minorities in certain countries like the Romani and Ashkali. The largest religion on the Balkans is Orthodox Christianity, followed by Catholic Christianity and Islam.

Here are several similar pistols which have been posted here, they do not have any particular distinguishing characteristics that I can see which would classify them as being "Balkan", does anyone here know why these would be called 'Balkan" and not simply "Ottoman".

Kubur · 3rd February 2015, 04:50 PM

Ok my friend escrtch
I think Balkans is more appropriate because it is a region.
Ottoman is a period.
Ottomans ruled from Istanbul to Algers and Yemen.
For example, Algerians pistols are very different.
So the region is probably more informative.
Or Ottoman Balkans if you prefer...
Kubur

Kubur · 3rd February 2015, 05:00 PM

I posted mines.
The last one is Algerian.
Kubur

estcrh · 3rd February 2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Ok my friend escrtch
I think Balkans is more appropriate because it is a region.
Ottoman is a period.
Ottomans ruled from Istanbul to Algers and Yemen.
For example, Algerians pistols are very different.
So the region is probably more informative.
Or Ottoman Balkans if you prefer...
Kubur

Kuber, what then is the difference between an Ottoman Turkish pistol and an Ottoman Balkan pistol?

Kubur · 3rd February 2015, 06:20 PM

Woaw it is a hard question.
To be honest I should say nothing.
BUT for me, Turkish is a population from Central Asia.
After the collapse of Ottoman Empire, Ataturk started the process of Turkification and laid the bases of Modern Turkey.
To my own and personnal knowledge, these pistols were produced in the Balkans for the Ottomans. But they are not Turks.
The Ottomans also used Caucasian pistols...
May be I'm wrong... You decide.

estcrh · 4th February 2015, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Woaw it is a hard question.
To be honest I should say nothing.
BUT for me, Turkish is a population from Central Asia.
After the collapse of Ottoman Empire, Ataturk started the process of Turkification and laid the bases of Modern Turkey.
To my own and personnal knowledge, these pistols were produced in the Balkans for the Ottomans. But they are not Turks.
The Ottomans also used Caucasian pistols...
May be I'm wrong... You decide.

Kuber, thanks for your reply, and I appreciate your thoughts. In my opinion I have yet to see any distinct evidence that the basic pistol such as the one Cerjak has posted is anything other than an Ottoman pistol. "Ottoman" to me means more than a period of time, it was an empire composed of many different cultures, countries and regions.

When I see weapons and or armor that originated in the Ottoman empire and there is no distinct sign of it being made or used by any particular region, country etc I call the item "Ottoman", such as an Ottoman kilij, on the other hand when an item is known to have come from a distinct region/country that was part of the Ottoman empire I use that region/country in the discription (Ottoman Empire Albanian "Rat Tail" Flint Pistol) or (Ottoman Empire Balkan yatagan).

This is just my opinion based what I have read and observed.

2nd February 2015, 12:19 PM	#2
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Cerjak, here are a pair of pistols which I have been told are Ottoman, with your two pistols on underneath for a comparison. Are there elements on mine which would identify them as being Balkan or non-Balkan? Attached Images Last edited by estcrh; 3rd February 2015 at 08:49 AM.

3rd February 2015, 06:57 AM	#5
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	MY OTTOMON PISTOL HERE IS MY TURKISH OTTOMON PISTOL AND A ALBANIAN MISQUELET RAT TAILED PISTOL,DURING OTTOMON RULE IN ALBANIA REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

2nd February 2015, 03:25 PM	#9
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	ONE MORE OTTOMAN PISTOL ONE MORE OTTOMAN PISTOL Attached Images

3rd February 2015, 05:00 PM	#16
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I posted mines. The last one is Algerian. Kubur Attached Images

2nd February 2015, 01:27 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here are two pistols which I can easily associate with the Balkans. The second one is Greek. If I may I suggest two books Elgood, Firearms of the Islamic world Elgood, The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period Our French friend is right, most these pistols are from the Balkans. But you are right also, the limit is very thin, it's like some daggers or swords... Anyway these weapons were produced for the Ottoman market! Kubur

3rd February 2015, 07:24 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Kuber, you may be right, but the owner (Met Museum) describes it thus Hi Museums are always wrong, please, see previous posts!

2nd February 2015, 05:16 PM	#11
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I have a question... What's the point of a dummy ram rod? I had one of these once, and thought it a tourista replica, because of having a carved rod. That would make loading, problematic. Unless they carried a complete loading kit.

2nd February 2015, 05:35 PM	#13
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Makes sense. Guess they hadn't come up with the captive rammer, as in most western cavalry muzzle loaders.

3rd February 2015, 04:50 PM	#15
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ok my friend escrtch I think Balkans is more appropriate because it is a region. Ottoman is a period. Ottomans ruled from Istanbul to Algers and Yemen. For example, Algerians pistols are very different. So the region is probably more informative. Or Ottoman Balkans if you prefer... Kubur

3rd February 2015, 06:20 PM	#18
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Woaw it is a hard question. To be honest I should say nothing. BUT for me, Turkish is a population from Central Asia. After the collapse of Ottoman Empire, Ataturk started the process of Turkification and laid the bases of Modern Turkey. To my own and personnal knowledge, these pistols were produced in the Balkans for the Ottomans. But they are not Turks. The Ottomans also used Caucasian pistols... May be I'm wrong... You decide.