Bronze Age axe head

[drac2k]

What happens when the Hittites knock on the palisade ?

[kronckew]

they lose big time. i outnumber them even tho there are more of them. and bronze is better than iron.

the sword in the stone, excalibur was bronze.

watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CZQO8q9DYU

battle of kadesh 1274 b.c. 20,000 egyptians vs. 23,000 to 50,000 hittites. rameses won on points. at least a draw. great slaughter on both sides. mostly slaughtered hittites tho. hittites sued for peace.

intereseting video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4qLhq5V2-o

'nother: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTAdzHbp2I

these were made by my local bronze smith noted earlier.

excerpt from a metallurgists dissertation

1.4 WHY CHANGE FROM GOOD BRONZE TO BAD IRON?
To return to the question with which I began this chapter, there are a number of
competing theories, and I have described some of them in previous editions of these
notes. However, in keeping with Occam's razor, the most probable reason is also the
simplest. They changed to iron because it was cheap.
In this the British were not unique. They were, in fact, repeating history from the
cradle of civilization in the Middle East more than a millennium earlier. Every society,
from the Hittites forward, changed to iron weaponry as soon as they learned how to make
it, despite the fact that the iron they could make was everywhere inferior to good bronze.
(When Goliath met David, in the biblical account, he was carried iron weapons but
wearing bronze armor. His choices give a pretty good indication of which metal he
thought would do the better job of protecting him.)
Early iron was inferior to good bronze, but it wasn't that bad. And it was plentiful
and cheap. Given a choice between a thousand soldiers armed with iron and half that
number armed with bronze, the wise king invested in iron. In many societies of the
period soldiers were expected to provide their own weaponry. Given that he could afford
fifty arrows tipped with iron or twenty tipped with bronze, the smart soldier made up his
mind very quickly.
Iron is, arguably, the most versatile metal in the periodic table, and metallurgists
gradually learned to make tools and weapons of iron that were far superior to any that
preceded them. But that came much later. In the early days iron dominated the market
because it was available and it was cheap.
If this is the case, can we, in Churchill's words, "plainly recognize across the vanished
millenniums a fellow-being?" Most of us will have little trouble doing that. In
fact, steel's place in the world market today is largely due to the fact that it is relatively
cheap. One can make a better automobile out of more exotic materials, and the owners of grand prix race cars do that. But most of us will continue to buy cars made primarily of
steel and bank the difference in price. A surprisingly large fraction of the materials used
in industry are chosen on the simple basis of cost and availability.


J. W. Morris, Jr.
A Survey of Materials Science
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
Fall 2008

[drac2k]

I will concede that the battle of Kadesh was a draw, especially since the only surviving record was Egyptian (the Record and the Ramesseum), with might have been tilted towards the Pharaoh's advantage.In fact, the "Treaty of Kadesh," was not signed for a number of years after the battle.
It didn't hurt either that Ramses ll, one of the greatest Pharaohs of Egypt, headed the campaigns.

[kronckew]

the hittites were a flash in the pan, made a big stink then disappeared. their capital city is in a wasteland, no water or arable land, deserted and abandoned, with very little to show they ever existed apart from the records of their enemies, like egypt, which has existed since history began and seems likely to continue doing so.

they have recently found the (or a) hittite library, or hall of records which was burned as the hittites abandoned the capital which seems to indicate in the found clay tablets that the ruler was overthrown by and murdered by a brother, and this so upset their strict religion and order, they fell apart.

[drac2k]

You mean like Ramessess lll, murdered by one of his wives and his son Tiye or Akhenaten who was very unpopular and vilified because he had the draconian concept to make his subjects worship one god ; very unpopular !
I think that all ruling dynasties, be they from China, Rome, Egypt, etc. had their share of intrigue.
In conclusion I agree that The Egyptian accomplishments surpass those of the Hittites, even though I think iron trumps bronze .

[kronckew]

i'll agree we can disagree steel maybe, but not crappy cheap iron.

show me a photo of a 3000 yr. old hittite sword in usable condition. there are many bronze ones that given a scrub & polish would do just as well as when they were born.

p.s. - my local bronze-smith (neil) sent me an email tonight that his schedule is packed and he's not taking new orders this quarter.

[Ken Maddock]

Thanks for all the reply s
I will look at the compositions
The easiest check would be for presence of aluminium followed
By phosphorous, ratios are a bit harder but definitely possible
Most tests are destructive but only a mili gram is required so that would be doable
I will start a new tread when I have work done,
I have just purchased a percussion punt gun and a blunderbuss so I have a lot to do in the study of these, all good problems though
Regards to all
Ken