"Is it really a Cockatoo?"

[A. G. Maisey]

This comment is not intended to contribute to any understanding of what the pommel form under discussion may represent, I am making only a general comment that may assist a little in understanding the position of birds in S.E. Asian cultures.

In all of maritime S.E. Asia birds play a very important role in societal structure, belief systems, burial rites, and virtually all other aspects of culture and society. Probably a similar situation exists in mainland S.E.Asia, but I have not looked at these cultures and societies in any depth.

The bird in general, and sometimes in particular, such as is the case with the cockatoo and the hornbill, are seen as occupying a position between the material world and the spirit world.

However, birds in general are seen as only one half of a cultural pair, the other half is the serpent.

Understood as a pair the bird and the serpent can then be seen as symbolic of all the hierarchies upon which S.E. Asian cultures and societies are based. The dualism represented by the serpent and the bird penetrates all aspects of S.E. Asian belief systems and life. A moment's thought and a minimal knowledge of the S.E. Asian cultures ad societies will provide more than sufficient examples of this.

Consider:- seen world : unseen world; the underground : the heavens; senior status (in all its forms) : junior status ( in all its forms); masculinity : femininity; dry season : wet season; dark : light; ruler : servant.

All these things are mutually dependent, one upon the other:- dark cannot exist without light, man cannot exist without woman, thus the existence of each maintains cosmic balance.

The serpent and the bird are the foundation symbols of this dualism upon which the systems that hold S.E. Asian cultures and societies together are based. These symbols penetrate all thought, perhaps not as conscious thought, but most certainly as a constant part of the sub-conscious.

When we discuss keris, or weapons, or any other part of the physical culture of any S.E. Asian society, we cannot really come to terms with the things that may interest us unless we first come to terms with the basic fabric of the culture and of the society that has produced that thing.

Something to think about:-

have you ever wondered why the dominant hilt forms associated with the keris are either ancestor related or bird related?

the true keris is a cosmic symbol, thus just as the blade represents one part of a duality, the hilt represents the other part of the duality.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This comment is not intended to contribute to any understanding of what the pommel form under discussion may represent, I am making only a general comment that may assist a little in understanding the position of birds in S.E. Asian cultures.

In all of maritime S.E. Asia birds play a very important role in societal structure, belief systems, burial rites, and virtually all other aspects of culture and society. Probably a similar situation exists in mainland S.E.Asia, but I have not looked at these cultures and societies in any depth.

The bird in general, and sometimes in particular, such as is the case with the cockatoo and the hornbill, are seen as occupying a position between the material world and the spirit world.

However, birds in general are seen as only one half of a cultural pair, the other half is the serpent.

Understood as a pair the bird and the serpent can then be seen as symbolic of all the hierarchies upon which S.E. Asian cultures and societies are based. The dualism represented by the serpent and the bird penetrates all aspects of S.E. Asian belief systems and life. A moment's thought and a minimal knowledge of the S.E. Asian cultures ad societies will provide more than sufficient examples of this.

Consider:- seen world : unseen world; the underground : the heavens; senior status (in all its forms) : junior status ( in all its forms); masculinity : femininity; dry season : wet season; dark : light; ruler : servant.

All these things are mutually dependent, one upon the other:- dark cannot exist without light, man cannot exist without woman, thus the existence of each maintains cosmic balance.

The serpent and the bird are the foundation symbols of this dualism upon which the systems that hold S.E. Asian cultures and societies together are based. These symbols penetrate all thought, perhaps not as conscious thought, but most certainly as a constant part of the sub-conscious.

When we discuss keris, or weapons, or any other part of the physical culture of any S.E. Asian society, we cannot really come to terms with the things that may interest us unless we first come to terms with the basic fabric of the culture and of the society that has produced that thing.

Something to think about:-

have you ever wondered why the dominant hilt forms associated with the keris are either ancestor related or bird related?

the true keris is a cosmic symbol, thus just as the blade represents one part of a duality, the hilt represents the other part of the duality.

^^^this
thanks for a very clear explanation, Alan. which would make even more sense on why the sarimanok (pommel) would be paired up with the sarinaga (blade).
the ukkil is very abstract, to the point where there's no logical similarity with what it is being represented. Ian, on your last post, i've never thought of it like that. thanks! if you think about it though, going by Alan's explanation on the belief on duality, the pommel could be something like an ambigram...
vandoo, regarding hornbills (called Kalaw), i do believe that they are sacred among the Mountain Province tribes, but not among the Moro tribes. i'm not sure about specific Lumad tribes.

[Battara]

As far as my research shows, the Lumad tribes do not give very special prominence to birds.

[Ian]

This moro kris just finished online and it presents another hilt version that might represent a cockatoo in a different manner. The silhouette of the hilt certainly looks like the outline of a cockatoo head and crest.

Ian

[Spunjer]

possibility, although the curves upfront resembling a silhouette of a cockatoo could be coincidental as well... i had a similar kris a couple years ago that has the same type of pommel. notice how the curve on mine is totally different. looks like the design is random. any other example of this style of pommel for comparison?

[Spunjer]

so 3 years later and i guess no one else has a similar type of pommel...

moving along, i bid on this kris last night just because i don't have this type of pommel in my collection. what's interesting is, instead of going about in making it as an abstract sarimanok, this one is realistic. i just hope whoever won that piece would post some close up pictures once it's all cleaned up

[Tim Simmons]

Really interesting thread. Subtle and abstract bird forms and motives are also found in what is known as Island Melanesia, Solomons ect . It is possible that in some places the origin for this may be lost but the forms are perpetuated just out of tradition.

ps, could there be any relation to Garuda? even slightly?

any thoughts
https://roguegaruda.wordpress.com/20...ndonesia-a-li/

[CCUAL]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

so 3 years later and i guess no one else has a similar type of pommel...

moving along, i bid on this kris last night just because i don't have this type of pommel in my collection. what's interesting is, instead of going about in making it as an abstract sarimanok, this one is realistic. i just hope whoever won that piece would post some close up pictures once it's all cleaned up

Ron....after the auction was ended the seller emailed me and noted that kris and scabbard were mismatched, I told him it's okay but it would be nice to have the matching scabbard! he told me that there was another scabbard that should have went on thesame auction but it was for the smaller dagger. I will sell it to you for $25, here it was, perfect fit!

no damage on the pommel/handle what so ever, but a forging crack on the blade. enjoy