Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?

Hi Jim,

Nice to have you back. I too have a south Indian feeling, but I don’t like, that we so far, have been unable to find a similar blade – other than the one from Figiel’s auction, and that is not exactly like the one Kai shows.

Jens

[Andrew]

Hi Jim.

[Marc]

Hello, Jim.
Nice to see you.


(BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure... )

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens, Andrew, Marc!
Thanks so much guys!!
Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.

Jens,
This blade definitely is a puzzler. It seems an almost serpentine recurved shape that is very much like a shortsword example I have with the same lazy S shape. It recalls also the curvature on those maddening 'Black Sea' yataghans that have caused such a stir over the years (these of course had more dramatic curve, deep belly for slashing and the needle point suggested as armour piercing). The consensus now, thanks to Ariels discovery, shows that these were from Turkish regions and into Armenia. These have distinct Persian characteristics in the blades, and if I may speculate, the same influences prevailed in Mughal regions, so possibly this blade shape may have entered the same way. We know that Mughal suzerainty extended well into the Deccan so such blades may have been found into regions we have considered in the south via these routes.
Basically this blade type seems a sosun pattah form shortsword which of course appeared in subtle variations. Most of these seem relatively recent innovations of 19th century origin.

The blade on my shortsword has the strengthened iron piercing point similar to those seen on many katars, so seems consistant with the northern blades as is the hilt which is the smooth pistol grip type khanjhar hilt.
I often wonder if these mid size weapons were intended specifically for close quarters melee.

All the best,
Jim

[Marc]

Jim, you underestimate me...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.

Well... maybe because Juan Eduardo Cirlot was Catalan and a more than noteworthy scholar in his time, because among the many things he wrote there were a few articles on weaponry (from the historical and artistic point of view), because his daughter, Victòria Cirlot wrote an excellent (unpublished, which is a real shame) PhD thesis about arms and armour in Catalonia between the 11th and 14th centuries...

He was also somewhat noted for having a nice collection of renaissance European swords...






That's, more or less, "how in the world"...

[kai]

Whoa, great revival! Just had to take a short leave from the forum and there we go...

Thanks, folks! I'll follow up on your leads and answer the points raised later.

Regards,
Kai

[Emanuel]

Hello,

This just finished on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It bears very strong similarities to the short sword discussed in this thread. It also seems to have a khyber-knife hilt and delicate niello work.

[Titus Pullo]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Kai,

There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best.
In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child?

Don't let that short small sword full you, though! The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter. And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon. If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss!

[kai]

Hello Titus,

The sword is rather compactly built in design, which makes it very sturdy and easier to chop at something; it'll probably hack and pierce right through metal plate armor with shear mass like butter.

Actually, it's not that heavy - I'm pretty sure it's more build for fast cuts (and stabs) rather than heavy blows (e.g. a Khukuri blade has much more momentum).

And because it's shorter, it makes it much easier to fight at closed range, which makes stabbing and cutting much easier, making it a deadly weapon.

I certainly wouldn't want to face it, especially with no or smaller blade. However, people have to learn using swords and that's where weapons for teenagers came in handy, especially when there was a possibility that blades might have to used for real.

BTW, I'm not insisting that this is the case with my sword just pointing out that it is a valid possibility.

If you look at the Roman sword for example, it's very compact in design...design to get in there and do some serious hacking and piercing. A sword for kids! Psss!

Yeah, but it seems that it evolved from fighting in closed military formations where extra reach can't be fully utilized (or rather was provided by pila). OTOH, the Indian sword size convention does strongly favor longer weapons.

(Note that the draw cut with regular Tulwars already supposes a pretty close quarter engagement - from the western sword play POV, that is. It's still possible that shorter swords like this were specialized back-up weapons for warriors with other primary weapons used at longer ranges. However, there seems to be not much evidence surviving for such a hypothesis AFAIK...)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

A quite similar sword got sold by Czerny's for a total of approx. US$2450 earlier this year:
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....ta=57&lang=eng

Note the hilt again displays the parrot motif as well as silver koftgari! Longer with a total length of 76.5 cm. Again no scabbard surviving.

From the pics, I can't make out wether the blade is made of wootz - my piece certainly is (of rather low contrast though).

Any comments/updates by forumites specialising on India?

Any additional pieces surfacing? One more example and we have a rare pattern/type emerging...

Regards,
Kai

[ariel]

Folks,
I have a sneaky suspicion that all of those belong to the same pattern as the ones discussed in the next -literally!- thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks,
I have a sneaky suspicion that all of those belong to the same pattern as the ones discussed in the next -literally!- thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429

I thought I had been dreaming Ariel;.. Please follow up on what you point out... Surely this is the same family? In my view and as you already point out on the other thread these could fuse as one thread...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note Czernys call it a rare sabre...I sympathize with their inability to find the exact name...It is so similar to the design of Pesh Kabz...and in fact also on some Persian Kard... In particular the throat design...and so similar to the Yatagan... (I note vague similarities to the decorative throat on Pihae Keata but only faintly similar...) Again I urge fusing the two threads noted earlier.

[Roland_M]

Not an expert but as far as I know Indians often copied good blades from other nations, for example the Kilij and Shamshir. I think, this could be an Indian interpretation of a Yatagan.

Roland