keris for comment

semar · 15th December 2014, 10:23 AM

thank you for the info of the dapur Jean
and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and
than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade
the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one
not new that what i can tel and what the tel me

Regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2014, 12:49 PM

Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade.

Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position.

The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng.

Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way.

You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same.

Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same.

Now then, Mr. Semar.

I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us.

You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions.

Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions.

Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this?

We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so.

We do this because we try to assist the questioner.

But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions.

You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct.

But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time.

For what purpose may I ask?

For your own amusement?

To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll.

It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you.

semar · 16th December 2014, 03:11 AM

Mister Maisey

i not try to waist your time i try to get so much info as posibel and I not see the problem when i aske peopel i know here in jawa wat the think about a keris blad that i buy because the are have more expiriance than me thats to point

way i put this one the forum to laern more about the keris the first keris i put u make a comment this is a keris oke you wright and i think that solo keris is a good keris thank you

so exempel Jean say nice blad looks old and he tel me the name of the dapur
than you say no thats a kamadarikan blad( oja Jean say thats wat´t i think to how its posibel when its i the first a nice blade looks like a old blade is and not a kamadarikan blade but after you say he agree thats way I always try to aske so manny peopel as i know because the will say this and the other wil say that ( so I not see the problem of that every body like the keris and every body have his one viewe of thinking of this subject

and sorry i not wont effend you but you think i a Troll thats not nice but when its make you happy your welkom

mister maiey i believe that you know verry much about the keris but some time a simpel discussie more helpful than al long one you can dowt every thing ore make over every thing a discussie even the discussie over the celebes keris so long and you make it more difficult than its nesecery you aske quistoins you even not can aswer nobody can say for 100% thats a keris have all is origneel parts we dont know if the change ad a blad 100 years ago thats have be broke we not can see that any more
and sorry i think its strange when you have a keris thats rare that you not will show a picteur of that keris only when you like to sell so peopel can learn something with out much words only treu looking

so i apologies for my upion and the mistake with my bad engels I hoop i make my point of vieuw clear

semar ( the troll )

David · 16th December 2014, 05:47 AM

OK gentlemen, that's enough...
Let's keep this discussion on the keris and keep it civil.
Frankly Semar, i also think your keris is Kemardikan.True, that is an opinion based on photographs while you have the keris in hand. But i believe i see some definite clues in the erosion of this blade that this keris has been artificially aged.
I must admit that, like Alan, i also question the practice of throwing a keris up on the boards that you believe you already know about without any indication of what you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. You would be better off saying all you think you know about the keris up front. It would appear more honest, more transparent. But i have noticed this is a general posting pattern for you. "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and rarely do you say any more about your posted item. I believe that Alan was perhaps rash to refer to you as a "troll". I certainly do not believe this is so. But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple...

BTW, Alan's practice of not showing his personal keris on the forum is not that unusual, especially amongst the indigenous culture. I mostly adhere to the same principle (though i recently did post one of my new keris simply for complete lack of knowledge of the form). I will show a sheathed keris (always meant for public presentation as an object of dress), but usually choose not to show my blades. They are my children after all.

Alan has been quite capable of imparting countless bits of valuable information about the keris and keris culture without having to violate his principle of not posting his keris in public places.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2014, 07:59 AM

David, do hope you will see fit to permit this response to Semar.

I have given considerable thought to his posts in this thread, and I am inclined to believe that although his pattern of communication may seem to be objectionable, it is not his nature that makes it so, but rather his difficulty with English.

Consider this:- it is very easy for you and me and a number of other regulars here to put up a question or a comment, but it is clear that for Semar this is not such an easy thing to do, so, instead of trying to say what he already knows, he goes on a fishing expedition.

I can understand this. I can use several languages, but I'm really only competent in one language apart from English, with the others, my writing would be on a par with Semar's English.

In short, I now feel that I was too hard on him, and that we all should be prepared to cut him a bit of slack. After all, he does make a considerable effort to take part in our discussions.

So Semar, please accept my apologies for the harsh manner in which I addressed you.

I would like to make a couple of additional minor comments.

For clarification:- I did not call you a Troll, what I said was this:-

"To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll."

There is a fine, but very important distinction between an accusation and a personal opinion in respect of a pattern of behaviour.

Yes, I agree with you that it is important to obtain as many opinions as possible about something when we wish to form a defensible opinion about said object, be it a keris or anything else.

However, when one has already obtained opinions from knowledgeable and experienced people, and when those opinions have been sufficient to permit one to form one's own opinion, it could be seen as somewhat contemptuous to seek a further opinion by presentation of extracted evidence (photographs) and in the absence of a presentation of the supporting evidence or argument that has permitted the formation of one's opinion, and then to reject that new opinion without a supporting argument.

As I have already said, I do not now believe that you intentionally set out to insult anybody, but I would most sincerely request you to in future post your queries as specific questions accompanied by whatever supporting evidence you may already have.

I am certain that if you follow this plan of action you will be much more successful in your increase of knowledge.

semar · 17th December 2014, 01:39 PM

hello David
I onley keris collector
"Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you
and yes thats the easy way for me because i not much of a expert in English writing i can speak it thats al and that i learn by my self So I have problems with the formulation of my questions and thats way i keep it simpel

and about you say (you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. ) i not agree with i acept what mister maisey but i tel him what other peopel say before maybe I'd have put it better to the point than tel it on my simpel way

so i hoop you understand it now a littel bite
so one last question But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... WHAT IS TROLLING

And mister maisey i wil try your advice if I can put it into the correct words

regards semar

David · 17th December 2014, 05:46 PM

Semar, i have send you a PM which will hopefully answer your questions.
Please continue if you will in this discussion on this keris.

15th December 2014, 10:23 AM	#1
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	thank you for the info of the dapur Jean and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one not new that what i can tel and what the tel me Regards semar Last edited by semar; 15th December 2014 at 12:16 PM.

15th December 2014, 12:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade. Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position. The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng. Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way. You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same. Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same. Now then, Mr. Semar. I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us. You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions. Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions. Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this? We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so. We do this because we try to assist the questioner. But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions. You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct. But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time. For what purpose may I ask? For your own amusement? To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll. It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 15th December 2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: clarification

16th December 2014, 03:11 AM	#3
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	Mister Maisey i not try to waist your time i try to get so much info as posibel and I not see the problem when i aske peopel i know here in jawa wat the think about a keris blad that i buy because the are have more expiriance than me thats to point way i put this one the forum to laern more about the keris the first keris i put u make a comment this is a keris oke you wright and i think that solo keris is a good keris thank you so exempel Jean say nice blad looks old and he tel me the name of the dapur than you say no thats a kamadarikan blad( oja Jean say thats wat´t i think to how its posibel when its i the first a nice blade looks like a old blade is and not a kamadarikan blade but after you say he agree thats way I always try to aske so manny peopel as i know because the will say this and the other wil say that ( so I not see the problem of that every body like the keris and every body have his one viewe of thinking of this subject and sorry i not wont effend you but you think i a Troll thats not nice but when its make you happy your welkom mister maiey i believe that you know verry much about the keris but some time a simpel discussie more helpful than al long one you can dowt every thing ore make over every thing a discussie even the discussie over the celebes keris so long and you make it more difficult than its nesecery you aske quistoins you even not can aswer nobody can say for 100% thats a keris have all is origneel parts we dont know if the change ad a blad 100 years ago thats have be broke we not can see that any more and sorry i think its strange when you have a keris thats rare that you not will show a picteur of that keris only when you like to sell so peopel can learn something with out much words only treu looking so i apologies for my upion and the mistake with my bad engels I hoop i make my point of vieuw clear semar ( the troll )

16th December 2014, 05:47 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	OK gentlemen, that's enough... Let's keep this discussion on the keris and keep it civil. Frankly Semar, i also think your keris is Kemardikan.True, that is an opinion based on photographs while you have the keris in hand. But i believe i see some definite clues in the erosion of this blade that this keris has been artificially aged. I must admit that, like Alan, i also question the practice of throwing a keris up on the boards that you believe you already know about without any indication of what you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. You would be better off saying all you think you know about the keris up front. It would appear more honest, more transparent. But i have noticed this is a general posting pattern for you. "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and rarely do you say any more about your posted item. I believe that Alan was perhaps rash to refer to you as a "troll". I certainly do not believe this is so. But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... BTW, Alan's practice of not showing his personal keris on the forum is not that unusual, especially amongst the indigenous culture. I mostly adhere to the same principle (though i recently did post one of my new keris simply for complete lack of knowledge of the form). I will show a sheathed keris (always meant for public presentation as an object of dress), but usually choose not to show my blades. They are my children after all. Alan has been quite capable of imparting countless bits of valuable information about the keris and keris culture without having to violate his principle of not posting his keris in public places.

16th December 2014, 07:59 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, do hope you will see fit to permit this response to Semar. I have given considerable thought to his posts in this thread, and I am inclined to believe that although his pattern of communication may seem to be objectionable, it is not his nature that makes it so, but rather his difficulty with English. Consider this:- it is very easy for you and me and a number of other regulars here to put up a question or a comment, but it is clear that for Semar this is not such an easy thing to do, so, instead of trying to say what he already knows, he goes on a fishing expedition. I can understand this. I can use several languages, but I'm really only competent in one language apart from English, with the others, my writing would be on a par with Semar's English. In short, I now feel that I was too hard on him, and that we all should be prepared to cut him a bit of slack. After all, he does make a considerable effort to take part in our discussions. So Semar, please accept my apologies for the harsh manner in which I addressed you. I would like to make a couple of additional minor comments. For clarification:- I did not call you a Troll, what I said was this:- "To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll." There is a fine, but very important distinction between an accusation and a personal opinion in respect of a pattern of behaviour. Yes, I agree with you that it is important to obtain as many opinions as possible about something when we wish to form a defensible opinion about said object, be it a keris or anything else. However, when one has already obtained opinions from knowledgeable and experienced people, and when those opinions have been sufficient to permit one to form one's own opinion, it could be seen as somewhat contemptuous to seek a further opinion by presentation of extracted evidence (photographs) and in the absence of a presentation of the supporting evidence or argument that has permitted the formation of one's opinion, and then to reject that new opinion without a supporting argument. As I have already said, I do not now believe that you intentionally set out to insult anybody, but I would most sincerely request you to in future post your queries as specific questions accompanied by whatever supporting evidence you may already have. I am certain that if you follow this plan of action you will be much more successful in your increase of knowledge.

17th December 2014, 01:39 PM	#6
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello David I onley keris collector "Keris for Comment" or "Keris for Sharing" is a common thread title for you and yes thats the easy way for me because i not much of a expert in English writing i can speak it thats al and that i learn by my self So I have problems with the formulation of my questions and thats way i keep it simpel and about you say (you think you know just it to draw out the opinions of others....only to disagree with those opinions because they don't jive with what you think you already know. ) i not agree with i acept what mister maisey but i tel him what other peopel say before maybe I'd have put it better to the point than tel it on my simpel way so i hoop you understand it now a littel bite so one last question But frankly, your posts often appear to me more as advertisements than trolling. I do hope this isn't the case. I can tolerate a troll more than i can a merchant in the our little temple... WHAT IS TROLLING And mister maisey i wil try your advice if I can put it into the correct words regards semar

17th December 2014, 05:46 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Semar, i have send you a PM which will hopefully answer your questions. Please continue if you will in this discussion on this keris.