keris for comment

[Jean]

Originally Posted by semar

thank you David
ho can tel me more about this dapur and i think the tangu of this keris wil be pinggi ???????

reagars semar

Hello Semar,
Your blade with 9 deep luk has the following ricikan: pejetan, tikel alis, sogokan, sraweyan, greneng, ganja dhungkul, and ada-ada? It does not match with any standard dapur from Central Java. The pamor pattern is Beras Wutah?
The style of the blade may be seen as Pengging because of the deep luks but this is not sufficient to attribute it to tangguh Pengging.
A nice blade anyway.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Pengging is a very, very scarce tangguh, not many people would ever have seen a keris of Pengging tangguh.

Yes, the luk in a Pengging keris are very steep, deep luk, but they are also very different to the luk in all other keris.

Personally, I cannot agree that the luk form of this keris is anything like the luk form of a Pengging keris.

I think perhaps that ganja kelap lintah might be a little closer to the mark?

One of the major distinguishing features of the Pengging style of keris is that it has a very long wadidang with a very deep curve, this results in a very long gulu meled. The blade cross section is rounded like rotan, the blumbangan is boto rubu.

I'm sorry, but to me, this keris does not even remotely resemble a Pengging keris.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you for the clarification about the features of Pengging blades.
Regarding the curved ganja, do you mean that it is specific to one tangguh? I am confused as I saw blades with such a ganja attributed to either tangguh Majapahit or Mataram, and it is often found on recent blades also.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, as usual Jean, there is a whole heap of stuff attached to this tangguh business that doesn't come through into broad understanding; I only gave a couple of the Pengging indicators, in fact, there are 13 that I have a note of.

I can see why you'd think that maybe this blade could bear some similarity to Pengging, and maybe that's what the maker was shooting for, because all he had to go on was the common description, but he'd never seen one either.

I've got one Pengging keris, and its just plain weird. I've only seen maybe one other --- I say "maybe" because I cannot remember if I've seen two that were attributed to Pengging, and if there was some sort of agreement that either were Pengging. In fact, the Pengging keris that I have is a very poor quality keris, but it does bear the salient features that permit it to be classified as Pengging.

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.

All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Pengging is an interesting classification, because it was never a kingdom, it was only maybe a kabupaten, it was set up by a noble from Majapahit, Adipati Handayaningrat, who was the grandfather of Sultan Hadiwijoyo of Pajang. This of course makes all the later rulers of Central Jawa, right through to today, descendants of Pengging (through the female line). The area even today has a strong spiritual element, it is located in Banyudono about 8 or 10 kilometers west of Adi Sumarmo airport. Interestingly Yosodipuro is buried there.

[semar]

hello mister Maisey

oke its not a keris from pengging like you say
can you tel me wich tangguh this keris can come from
and it is possibele to show the bald of penggi so we can get a idee


regards Semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Based upon what I believe I can see in the photograph I am of the opinion that this keris is tangguh Kemardikan.

I'm sorry, but I do not display photographs of my personal keris until such time as I may be prepared to sell.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, I'm not aligning the ganja form with any classification. They do seem to crop up more on East Jawa keris, but you can find them on just about any later keris I believe.
All I'm saying is that the form is kelap lintah. Have a look at Ensiklopedi P. 167.

Thank you Alan. According to Haryoguritno this style of curved ganja with 3 luk and curved kanyut is called Dhungkul (see Keris Jawa page 162) while the ganja Kelap Lintah is similar but with 5 luk, is it correct?
And thank you for your opinion that this kris is probably recently made although it looks old, I sensed it also but have not enough experience to be affirmative about it.
Regards

[semar]

thank you for the info of the dapur Jean
and sorry i not belive this is a Kemardikan.keris but that what i think and
than a vieuw peopel here in djogya make a mistak and in solo to that look to this blade
the peopel that look and have this keris in the hand al agree the blad is old one
not new that what i can tel and what the tel me

Regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, look at the bottom of the ganja, the bottom being the part of the ganja that touches the base of the blade.

Now count from below the sirah cecak with the point of the keris in the down position.

The waves in Semar's ganja go down > up >down > up > down --this last "down" trailing into the greneng.

Now count Haryoguritno's waves in the same way, then count Harsrinuksmo's waves in the same way.

You will find that although each of these illustrations of ganjas look different, they are in fact the same.

Do the same exercise with the two totally different illustrations of ganja dhungkul. Once again you will find that they are the same.


Now then, Mr. Semar.

I have the feeling that you are playing some sort of game with us.

You have already presented this keris to people whom I assume to be experienced and knowledgeable and who live in Central Jawa, and you have their opinions.

Then you present us with photos and ask for our opinions.

Can you please explain exactly what you hoped to achieve by this?

We all know that a photograph cannot compare with the actual handling of a keris when we need to form an opinion, but when somebody asks us to provide an opinion we still endeavour to do so.

We do this because we try to assist the questioner.

But here you are, effectively wasting our time with empty questions.

You already had what any reasonable person would regard as adequate opinions, and in light of your most recent post, it would seem that you had already accepted the opinions of these people as correct.

But you then post photos , initially with no comment, and fish for our opinions, in the process wasting our time.

For what purpose may I ask?

For your own amusement?

To my way of thinking this sort of behaviour comes dangerously close to the behaviour one would expect of a Troll.

It is entirely possible that I may be in error in respect of your motivation, so it is that I am more than willing to listen to a plausible explanation from you that will dispel my present opinion of your behaviour, and provide me with the opportunity to extend my apologies to you.