What makes a dha a dha

[tom hyle]

Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, [/QUOTE]

'Fraid I don't. The farmer's short swords, especially when they have a point, are certainly intended for violence. They may have features which linguistically or even legally define them as knives (though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant), but their intent and descent, as well of course as their shapes, are the same as of the "higher end" (and I object to the whole idea of attaching concepts of quality to social status, fanciness, or intended use, since it is an invalid and by no means constantly establishable connection) warrior(?) dhas. We have seen much this relationship very recently with an European sword excavated on Cyprus; clearly a working caste piece, with the flat tang, soft rivets, and layered hilt of a knife (plus peasanty crudity expressed in both the cross section and the lack of taper), but very clearly indeed intended to emulate and serve much as a soldierly sword. Such parrallel strands of folk-level vs. "high" (ie. rich/armigerous/high-caste) culture within the same societies are a thing I find interesting. Similarities; co-ancestralness; mutual copying; unities and dichotomies. The "high" culture perspective feels it neccessary to maintain a division, as this is part of a basis of certain claims and beliefs it enjoys......

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

"(though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant)"

Tom, by this definition a screwdriver, a chisel, and silver chased table knife would all be of the same classification. They all have a one-hand handle, and a blade, however it is the variance of the design (length, width, decoration) for its intended purpose that put these in different catagories.

As for the quality aspect I'm not saying that the dual use utilitarian blades are of less quality some I'm sure are not, but as a generalization in this area of the world swords made for people of rank or status get more attention to detail. Whether I agree with the stratification or not it is a fact of life.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

"(though in this case those characteristics are strictly limitted to shortness, width, and decoration level, all of which seem to me rather nebulous and perhaps irrelevant)"

Tom, by this definition a screwdriver, a chisel, and silver chased table knife would all be of the same classification. They all have a one-hand handle, and a blade, however it is the variance of the design (length, width, decoration) for its intended purpose that put these in different catagories......

The basic design of the implements you mention is quite different when they are properly made (the screwdriver is built to resist torsional force, a chisel to cut at the end and withstand lengthwise force, and the table knife to cut at the long edge and have fine finger control), and only bear a close resemblance in the crappiest variation of each (the too-flat or thin-tipped screwdriver; the thin flat, tanged chisel; the stamped flatware "knife", and while all occur in a tanged bolstered form this is, actually, indeed a close familial resemblance, with the others copying from this ancient chisel/arrow/spear feature), while these SE Asian peasant "knives" only differ from the "swords" ONLY in size, blade WIDTH *(no other feature of blade or handle design or construction), and decoration.

*hmmmm....is this just as defined relative to length? Because....lightbulb!....the actual width is the same....?! (between a full sized sword dha and a farmer's short sword of 1/2 the blade length, but otherwise similar shape)

[tom hyle]

I think this falls mostly under "decoration", and is by no means cosntant, but there is the tiny guard and the flared, closed end-cap (rather than the plainer cilyndrical or cup shaped ferule). These two features are far from universal on the higher status dha, but I think are unseen on the rural style, which likewise is, in my experience, also otherwise plain.

[Montino Bourbon]

Few people would look twice at a person carrying a few heavy-duty screwdrivers; yet they are among the best throwing knives made! so a 'working' piece can be a better weapon than a piece made for the purpose, such as the 'throwing knives' that are sold on ebay. Besides, a person bent on covert work can walk freely into many places carrying an electrician's tool kit holding several nicely sharpened screwdrivers, whereas even small swiss army knives may be confiscated; so in a certain way, the 'working' versus 'fighting' is moot.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I think this falls mostly under "decoration", and is by no means cosntant, but there is the tiny guard and the flared, closed end-cap (rather than the plainer cilyndrical or cup shaped ferule). These two features are far from universal on the higher status dha, but I think are unseen on the rural style, which likewise is, in my experience, also otherwise plain.

Sometimes, Tom, your brain moves fast. It's like watching a whirlwind.


One of the exceptions to your observation would be the "Montagnard" style dha. These, invariably, have small tsuba-like guards. Incongruous in many instances, given the often extremely long handles.

Otherwise, I think it's important to point out that the working dha of many hilltribes often have handles and scabbards quite elaborately decorated with silver, particularly those of the Kachin, Karen and Shan. Thus, the line blurrs further.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

...and I object to the whole idea of attaching concepts of quality to social status, fanciness, or intended use, since it is an invalid and by no means constantly establishable connection...

......

The "high" culture perspective feels it neccessary to maintain a division, as this is part of a basis of certain claims and beliefs it enjoys......

Tom, you've lost me here. What are you saying? That high-quality doesn't necessarily equate to high class?

Perhaps, but it is difficult to ignore that better quality weapons, particularly those with extensive decoration with prescious metals and such are usually the property of the rich and/or powerful. With regard to dha, fancy usually equates to status and, although some excellent "workman-like" weapons exist in my collection, it is the higher-end weapons that exibit the better construction and quality. Aside from status, economics would logically dictate this to be so.

Am I misunderstanding your point?

[Mark]

As a further comment, with regard to dha, at least in Burma and Thailand, it is not speculation but fact that the opulance and quality of decoration on a sword is a direct indication of social rank and status. In both countries permissible decoration for swords was carefully defined (so many bands meant one rank, more bands meant a higher rank, silver decoration was reserved for a certain level of rank, gold only for royal, etc.). There basically was a visual code which I know exists, but haven't deciphered yet. Its just a matter of collection primary sources, which I am working on.

The other issue is "quality" of the sword, and I agree that a humble-appearing sword can have a very high quality. A couple in my collection are this way -- they have simple fittings but really excellent and well-made blades.

So the issue of "quality" acting as a measure of social division really depends on what sort of quality you mean, because there are very real social divisions in SEA, and they definitely equate to an outward display of greater opulance. Leach writes in "Political Systems of Highland Burma" that among the Kachin hill tribes "Changes in social status such as these [reaching adulthood] are indicated mainly by change of dress. Boys not go through any form of ritual initiation ... As he gets older he will take increasing pride in his skill at handling his sword -- which is a general purpose tool serving equally well for felling trees and paring finger nails; elders of the community can usually be distinguished by the fact that they carry a sword of particularly fine quality." p. 134. It is noted in the "Cambridge History of Southeast Asia" ("CHSEA") that in 1454 king Trailok of Ayutthaya (Thailand) passed a law that determined the civil and military status of everyone inthe kingdom, listing various military titles and their appropriate weaponry. Vol. 1, part 1, p. 38. This law instituted a heirarchical numbering system that applied to everyone in the kingdom and fixed each person's status, and their rights and obligations under the law. CHSEA, vol.1, part 1, p. 171. "The Arts and Crafts of Thailand" (I forget the author and page -- I don't have the book in front of me) also says that the quality of ivory carving on the handle of a knife indicated social status.

[Mark]

I thought that I would address the "tool" versus "weapon" issue in a separate post.

What we are talking about is not a strict division between blades that are tools and blades that are swords. Rather, there are dha that are intended for use, and routinely used, for both, and there are dha that are intended for use solely as weapons, at least from the symbolic/status point of view, and are never used as tools.

Then there are blades that are basically intended to be used as tools, though of course they can be used as weapons if needed. The shorter choppers (dha-mauk) fall into this category, as they are distinguished by the Burmese as a separate type of blade that is essentially utilitarian and not seen as a "sword." The villager of Southeast Asia will seldom be without the dual purpose blade, as it serves as jungle knife, hunting knife, butcher knife, and as a weapon of defense or offense (the jungle is a dangerous place). The single use "weapon" dha are usually more carefully made, more carefully finished (such as with polishing) and can be more elaborately decorated (such as with engraving, inlay, koftgari, etc.). They are not subject to the wear-and-tear of the duel-purpose blade and so the owner invests more in it. The tool/weapon dha are generally less finished (though often of very good workmanship and steel, with laminated construction and/or edge hardening), ususally just roughly ground with file/stone marks still visible, and fittings of simple material -- plain wood scabbard and handle, rattan wrappings, etc.

So there is at least a functional, and in many ways interesting, distinction between the two types of swords. What I find most interesting is the utilitarian aspect of what really appears to be a weapon. I guess a machete is a good analogy. Is it a weapon? Is it a tool? Hm ....

[Andrew]

You're killing me here, Mark. At least wait until next week to see what I've recently written about all this.

[tom hyle]

I think Mark has more or less done a better job of explaining what I meant than I probably would have, while going into some other interesting things as well (these weapon varieties would indicate militia rank, as with Massai spears? Is that what I'm hearing?) I do think it neccessary to add that, decoration and polish aside, and across the cultures of the world I find no correlation between original expense and quality of weapons and tools. You might like to think it's otherwise, but it's not, and it never was; an expensive sword cannot be relied upon to be straighter, truer, better tempered, better balanced, stronger, better assembled (inside, where it counts), or better designed than a plain and relatively inexpensive piece. Furthermore, the focus on fancy pieces is often specifically on decoration, and often at the cost of function (ie. actual quality), as a rich man is often presumed either to have little utilitarian use for tools and weapons, or assumed to be owner of several for different purposes (ceremonial/dress vs. field/combat), while a work man can afford only one and must use it often, so this lack of co-relation only makes sense. There is an ancient Celtic myth about a young warrior later to be a great leader, who lay with a fay woman on an island. Since he'd impregnated her, her father wanted to reward him (hey, it was Faerie, so things were different, hee hee.....). He offered him his choic of a hoard of weapons; many gold-wrapped and jewelled, with etched and sculpted blades; the swords of dead kings and sea captains, but the youth, only after examining them all, chose a plain sword with a smooth blade and a black hilt, and it was the best of them all. A tale told of Arthur, but older, really; a lesson for warriors and kings.........

[Mark]

Indeed. I have a couple swords where the blade just seems to be something to hold the fancy decoration together. They put all the effort and workmanship into the fittings, and little into the swordsmithing.

Sorry Andrew. I got carried away.