Bugis Keris

David · 27th November 2014, 06:09 PM

Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2014, 09:12 PM

Thanks for your clarification David.

Yes, from a Javanese perspective there is absolutely no doubt that the blade bevel on this keris is correctly termed gusen --- or whatever of the variations we're comfortable with.

The profile of the blade is classic Bugis. The Surakarta classification system does recognise a Bugis classification, and the notes I have in respect of cross section translate as:-
"there is no ada-ada, the blade is flat and has a wide gusen".

Regarding the term we use for the cap at the end of the gandar. In Javanese terminology this is "buntut".

The word "buntut" can be used in a few different ways, it means a tail, it means the rear end of anything, it also means the result or consequence of something. So the little cap that we sometimes see on the end of a gandar is named thus because of its position:- it’s the tail of the gandar --- just as Ron guessed. Buntut is a noun.

There is also a word "buntet", this means that one end of something is closed. Buntet is an adjective.

There are other related words that have different meanings, like "buntu"= deadend, clogged, blocked; "bunting"= cut off; "bunuh"= confused (your thoughts are mixed up, so you cannot progress in thought, same idea as a deadend); "bunting" & "buncit"= youngest person in a family(the family line does not extend past the youngest); "buntas"=last part or end; "buntar"=the end of a tombak shaft, also the end of a ditch.

That "bun" syllable carries the idea of something being finished, the examples I've given are just a few that come readily to mind, but I'm sure there are a whole heap of words that begin with "bun" that the idea of closure can be seen in. I guess even the word for a wrapping --- "buntel" --- carries the same sense of being the end of something --- inside the wrapping is substance, outside the wrapping is nothing.

As I said previously a lot of keris words are just ordinary words. Perhaps one of the biggest gains that could be made in keris understanding might be to learn just a little bit of Bahasa Indonesia, and/or Javanese.

I'm no linguist, and in truth I have very limited ability in languages other than English, but I believe that if we looked at languages across SE Asia, and even into the Pacific, we would find a strong connecting thread. I've often heard Tagalog spoken, I do not understand it, but listening to it I always feel that I am on the edge of understanding what is being said, it has a very similar tone and cadence to Javanese, and the words taken individually sound comprehensible.

David · 28th November 2014, 02:53 AM

Thanks for the additional info Alan. Of course when i was writing auto-correct changed "buntut" to "bunter", which i can only assume is baseball terminology…

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2014, 03:10 AM

Oh yeah --- auto correct.

What a pain!!!

I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot.

It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

Spunjer · 28th November 2014, 04:13 AM

yes, there seems to be a lot of commonality between javanese and tagalog. you mentioned "buncit"; in tagalog, it's bunso. the similarity goes way back, as illustrated by the Laguna Copper plate, which was inscribed in 900 AD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription

Thanks for everyone's input!

David · 28th November 2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yeah --- auto correct.

What a pain!!!

I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot.

It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

Well you can teach new words to the auto-correct so that it doesn't change them. I have done this with a few keris related terms, but there are so many more.

Jean · 29th November 2014, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

From the pics it would seem that the bottom piece is not more recent than the scabbard itself but it is not in Sulawesi nor East Sumatra Bugis style IMO, see a typical old Sulawesi scabbard for comparison.
Regards

Sajen · 29th November 2014, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

From the pics it would seem that the bottom piece is not more recent than the scabbard itself but it is not in Sulawesi nor East Sumatra Bugis style IMO, see a typical old Sulawesi scabbard for comparison.
Regards

Hello Jean,

like said before, the keris could be from North Sumatra, have a look to Jensens Kris Disk, the stars around the bottom from the handle are typical for Gayo. This would explain also the somewhat unusual scabbard style.

Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 29th November 2014, 03:45 PM

Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

Jean · 29th November 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

Yes Rick, I am also wondering and expected somebody to raise it... The pamor pattern on the blade is mlumah (pamor lines parallel to the blade lenght) while on the ganja they are miring (perpendicular to the blade lenght). To me one way to achieve it would be to cut the ganja and to weld it perpendicular to the blade lenght? I can see a trace of a welding line between the blade and the ganja but I am not sure. This is the first time I see such an odd ganja.
Regards

David · 29th November 2014, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

To me one way to achieve it would be to cut the ganja and to weld it perpendicular to the blade length? I can see a trace of a welding line between the blade and the ganja but I am not sure. This is the first time I see such an odd ganja.

Perhaps, but that would seem an odd way to create a gonjo iras blade AFAIK since i always thought such blades were made all in one piece, not welded together afterwards. First time i have see such a thing as well.

Jean · 29th November 2014, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps, but that would seem an odd way to create a gonjo iras blade AFAIK since i always thought such blades were made all in one piece, not welded together afterwards. First time i have see such a thing as well.

I hope that Alan will enlighten us

Regards

kai · 29th November 2014, 09:26 PM

Yes, this ganja seems to have been welded back onto the blade. I doubt this is practised in Jawa - probably pretty ideosyncratic craftmanship...

I wouldn't call this a ganja iras blade either since the esthetics are obviously different.

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 29th November 2014, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

like said before, the keris could be from North Sumatra, have a look to Jensens Kris Disk, the stars around the bottom from the handle are typical for Gayo. This would explain also the somewhat unusual scabbard style.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
The diamonds at the base of this hilt have a peculiar shape and they are not exclusive to Gayo hilts IMO, see this one from West Sumatra for instance. The Gayo hilts are generally in Jawa Demam or bawar style, but not Bugis? And the scabbard is not at all typical of Gayo krisses? Any opinion about the possible origin of this kris will be welcome.

Regards

Sajen · 29th November 2014, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
The diamonds at the base of this hilt have a peculiar shape and they are not exclusive to Gayo hilts IMO, see this one from West Sumatra for instance. The Gayo hilts are generally in Jawa Demam or bawar style, but not Bugis? And the scabbard is not at all typical of Gayo krisses? Any opinion about the possible origin of this kris will be welcome.

Regards

Hello Jean,
what let you be sure that your hilt is from West Sumatra?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2014, 06:58 AM

The gonjo question.

Simple answer:- don't know.

If I had it in hand I would examine closely under magnification, and I think I'd probably find that it had been welded in position, but what sort of weld?

Gas? Electric? Forge?

What was done, when was it done, and why?

Don't know.

Jean · 1st December 2014, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,
what let you be sure that your hilt is from West Sumatra?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not sure of course as this style of hilt is very rare. I rely on the information given by Vanna Ghiringhelli on pages 146/147 of her book "The Invincible krisses 2" which shows a similar hilt (without the stars) fitted on a Minangkabau kris bought near Padang, and another hilt shown on page 105 of her first book "Kris Gli Invincibili" (without definite origin).
Regards

27th November 2014, 06:09 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks for the bottom view Ron. My person view is that a bunter would probably be proper here, but that doesn't mean one was ever there. But regardless of patina it does appear to me at least that the bottom did not receive the same staining treatment as the rest of the stem. A thin piece of ivory here would possibly have been a nice finishing touch.

27th November 2014, 09:12 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your clarification David. Yes, from a Javanese perspective there is absolutely no doubt that the blade bevel on this keris is correctly termed gusen --- or whatever of the variations we're comfortable with. The profile of the blade is classic Bugis. The Surakarta classification system does recognise a Bugis classification, and the notes I have in respect of cross section translate as:- "there is no ada-ada, the blade is flat and has a wide gusen". Regarding the term we use for the cap at the end of the gandar. In Javanese terminology this is "buntut". The word "buntut" can be used in a few different ways, it means a tail, it means the rear end of anything, it also means the result or consequence of something. So the little cap that we sometimes see on the end of a gandar is named thus because of its position:- it’s the tail of the gandar --- just as Ron guessed. Buntut is a noun. There is also a word "buntet", this means that one end of something is closed. Buntet is an adjective. There are other related words that have different meanings, like "buntu"= deadend, clogged, blocked; "bunting"= cut off; "bunuh"= confused (your thoughts are mixed up, so you cannot progress in thought, same idea as a deadend); "bunting" & "buncit"= youngest person in a family(the family line does not extend past the youngest); "buntas"=last part or end; "buntar"=the end of a tombak shaft, also the end of a ditch. That "bun" syllable carries the idea of something being finished, the examples I've given are just a few that come readily to mind, but I'm sure there are a whole heap of words that begin with "bun" that the idea of closure can be seen in. I guess even the word for a wrapping --- "buntel" --- carries the same sense of being the end of something --- inside the wrapping is substance, outside the wrapping is nothing. As I said previously a lot of keris words are just ordinary words. Perhaps one of the biggest gains that could be made in keris understanding might be to learn just a little bit of Bahasa Indonesia, and/or Javanese. I'm no linguist, and in truth I have very limited ability in languages other than English, but I believe that if we looked at languages across SE Asia, and even into the Pacific, we would find a strong connecting thread. I've often heard Tagalog spoken, I do not understand it, but listening to it I always feel that I am on the edge of understanding what is being said, it has a very similar tone and cadence to Javanese, and the words taken individually sound comprehensible.

28th November 2014, 02:53 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks for the additional info Alan. Of course when i was writing auto-correct changed "buntut" to "bunter", which i can only assume is baseball terminology…

28th November 2014, 03:10 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Oh yeah --- auto correct. What a pain!!! I have tried to find out how to turn it off and I cannot. It would be nice if I could get something that would check text on request, identify words it thinks are wrong, and let me decide if they are wrong or not.

28th November 2014, 04:13 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yes, there seems to be a lot of commonality between javanese and tagalog. you mentioned "buncit"; in tagalog, it's bunso. the similarity goes way back, as illustrated by the Laguna Copper plate, which was inscribed in 900 AD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laguna_...te_Inscription Thanks for everyone's input!

29th November 2014, 03:45 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Anyone beside me wondering how the heck they achieved that ganja iras ??

29th November 2014, 09:26 PM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Yes, this ganja seems to have been welded back onto the blade. I doubt this is practised in Jawa - probably pretty ideosyncratic craftmanship... I wouldn't call this a ganja iras blade either since the esthetics are obviously different. Regards, Kai

30th November 2014, 06:58 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The gonjo question. Simple answer:- don't know. If I had it in hand I would examine closely under magnification, and I think I'd probably find that it had been welded in position, but what sort of weld? Gas? Electric? Forge? What was done, when was it done, and why? Don't know.