Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks, but the Gold goes to my Russian colleagues who identified it. I was just a messenger.

Much research in the classroom is just finding a source. You've still got a gold star. despite you being a member of the usually English Self depreciating society.

But yes your Russian colleagues certainly deserve a gold star as well!

spiral

[Richard G]

Spiral,
I don't think I have any special software, but in my setup, Windows Vista and Google Chrome, you do have to untick the pop up blocker in Google Chrome if you want to see the individual item. I had no trouble doing the search and getting to the list I hope you could see. For reasons beyond my savvy, I noticed some pictures appeared in the "pop up" which were not on the original search results'
Hope this helps.
Richard

[spiral]

Ahh Many thanks Richard, Im on windows 8.1 but was using explorer. Ill give chrome a try on it.

spiral

ps.. great chrome works with it indeed!

A lovely example!

Acquired in Malawi 3 September 1893. bought at auction 1901..

Interestingly the steel is clearly more primitive at this date...


I rather suspect the Scots Run African company , had these made on locally, with British/Indian overseers... { Based on no evidence whatsoever though... }

spiral

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
I fear I have not explained my thoughts clearly. What I meant is that certain jambiyas/khunjars that appear in reference books and whose attributed origin many of us accepted as fact turns out out be doubtful, at best.

For example the Ruth Hawley dagger, attributed to Oman and probably the Sharqiyah in particular.
Why?, almost certainly because it was collected there.
Now we think it is probably Saudi Arabian.
Why?, because it has the characteristics of a Saudi Arabian dagger.
Explanation. A Saudi Arabian type of jambiya made in Oman? or a Saudi Arabian jambiya that has found its way into the Oman?
If it was made in Oman it is an Omani dagger, if it was made in Saudi Arabia and collected in Oman it still remains a Saudi Arabian dagger. Do we know which it is?

My point as regards these Malawi daggers was that just because they were collected in Malawi does not necessarily mean they were made in Malawi.
I now accept that the available evidence strongly suggests they were made in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Richard G

in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard

I agree there definably not tribal pieces...

I suspect the African company as majors traders & dealers of store goods 7 ivory may be the culprits...

But without evidence other Brit. Indian or Arab entrepreneurs could be involved.

Although hippo ivory was sold internationally , I suspect the use of small peg teeth implies local manufacture, despite the European trade knife tang & western Himalayan region type bolster... Which probably just ids the origin of the men who ran the business or businesses that had these made in Malawi...

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[

Originally Posted by Richard G

Ibrahim,
I fear I have not explained my thoughts clearly. What I meant is that certain jambiyas/khunjars that appear in reference books and whose attributed origin many of us accepted as fact turns out out be doubtful, at best.

For example the Ruth Hawley dagger, attributed to Oman and probably the Sharqiyah in particular.
Why?, almost certainly because it was collected there.
Now we think it is probably Saudi Arabian.
Why?, because it has the characteristics of a Saudi Arabian dagger.
Explanation. A Saudi Arabian type of jambiya made in Oman? or a Saudi Arabian jambiya that has found its way into the Oman?
If it was made in Oman it is an Omani dagger, if it was made in Saudi Arabia and collected in Oman it still remains a Saudi Arabian dagger. Do we know which it is?

My point as regards these Malawi daggers was that just because they were collected in Malawi does not necessarily mean they were made in Malawi.
I now accept that the available evidence strongly suggests they were made in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G; With apologies for interjecting some detail not related to the current thread topic..which I find quite interesting by the way... The little pamphlet by Ruth Hawley set the benchmark for research on all things Omani Silver. The historical content is excellent but as you point out and we now know... that wayward item... in fact a Yemeni weapon from the Asir now an area included in the country of KSA but a style clearly linked to the Omani Royal Khanjar through trade. The Thread on Omani Khanjars refers.

So convincing was this Asir weapon style that for years even www.omanisilver.com was fooled into thinking that these were Omani. There is, however, no link in reverse except in the case of a dagger seen in Yemen and almost identical to the Omani Salalah item but that is not in this equation... I can safely state that no such migration of style is apparent in any Saudi style directly upon the weaponry of Oman.. It didn't happen. The only far and distant blade movement across the entire region is in a deep study concerning ancient swords that probably originated in Hadramaut possibly in the 7th Century AD and which were derivatives of the religious weapon at the beginning of Islam... but that is so far in the past and convoluted as to be beyond this conversation...

Regarding book publications on the subject of Omani Khanjars; There aren't any I could suggest as being anywhere near accurate though some detail is correctly recorded in the work by Richardson and Dorr but it is by no means a complete picture...and the reason is that Oman only emerged onto the modern world stage only in 1970. Research as discovered by Ruth Hawley in her otherwise brilliant little book was done without a safety net and virtually with no proper in country museum or historical documentation to hand at that time. Whilst the more recent Richardson and Dorr is more informative it is still only broad brush in detail thus a comprehensive study is still required.

Your first paragraph is indeed true.. How many times have we seen weapons illustrated by famous explorers and ethnographic specialists with otherwise quite impeccable records turn out to be not factual... One that springs to mind is the S'boula said by the respected historian Burton to have been "of Zanzibar"....when it was nothing of the sort !... but of course in those days how much more difficult it was to travel to dangerous places...and to get out alive was not easy.

But therein lies the conundrum...does it not? That Forum is there to research and penetrate those dark corners/ shine a light and debate the myths and legends and sort out the truth..Is it not every Forumites mission in life to dig up the facts...expose the mistakes and discover new angles on this fascinating detective story...and even along the way to learn a little of the history...and possibly share it with others and the Library...and if the anvil gets a little bit heated in the process ...so what? Is that not what a Forum should do? (5 quid to the first moronic reply ...)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Tim Simmons]

What a lot of fun! really good.

[Jampot10]

Good Morning or maybe evening for some !

Now it looks like we're thinking the ivory handles are Hippo - I have to say looking at these in the flesh they are much whiter and smoother to touch than previous Ivory I've seen.

My next task is trying to pin down what the handle on the larger knife might be. The original pictures were poor and taken indoors under artificial light. These ones are outside, natural light only and hopefully much clearer. There seems to be a kind of yellow - orange colour alongside the darker features of the handle.

The white speck in one of the pictures is paint - shame but I did find these in an old tool box so can't complain.

Would anyone be willing to give an opinion on material ?

[Gavin Nugent]

An interesting material.

It could be bovine looking at the texture and the filled crack.

Equally it could be the antler of one of the many types found, all ground and polish in to its current form.

Gavin