Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

spiral · 5th November 2014, 06:51 PM

To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago...

spiral

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 07:21 PM

I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa.

This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style

I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:47 PM

Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani.

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:47 PM

Another one...

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:48 PM

And a last one...

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 09:06 PM

Now here is a cruder form previously discussed on this forum and considered to be Afghan.

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 09:19 PM

Some thoughts...

Note that the blade is very similar to some short Burmese dha knives in both profile and execution:
- single-edged
- slight droop towards the edge
- well executed fullers on the good example, but flat blade on cruder examples

Note the bolster construction which appears to borrow both from Nepalese khukri bolsters, and from Tibetan knives, with a rivet through the bolster well brushed and hidden.

The tang construction is unique in that the tang maintains the same section as the blade and is not hidden inside the handle, which has a slot to received it. So far, only the crude Afghan knife above features this tang construction. Otherwise the Tibetan knives feature slab/scale handles, while most khukri and Burmese handles have a hole inside to receive a narrower rat-tail tang. Khukri with slab/scale handles appear in WWII with the British pattern MK2.

The circular decorative motif on the handle and sometimes scabbard straps is not a helpful feature in establishing the origin of these knives as it has already been shown many many times on this forum that it is extremely widespread to different cultures around the world.

The stamped markings at the base of the blade are like nothing else. They closely resemble flags or maritime symbols to me. The marks are repeated 2-3 times and look like they were struck by the same punch. This suggests a standardized manufacture to me, not simple village production.

Emanuel

spiral · 5th November 2014, 09:23 PM

I obviously always thought these NWF, Assam, Burma maybe surrounding regions...

That being Due to there details of manufacture... the only discrepancy being the exposed partial tang, that is historically usually European..

But personally ill accept Malawi etc. for these... as 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless or Until someone proves there from the Yao in Burma or some Indian manufacture etc.

Indian manufacture in Africa could make more sense to me?

But until that time I have to go with available apparently provenaced pieces originally from 3 separate collections, unless some one can dig up another pre.ww2 reference or reliable provenance to prove the BM have got 3 accessions incorrectly listed to donors or they are made by Indian smiths in Africa, etc.etc.

When I look at other African Yao stuff I see no similarity... Strangely the Lao Dao from Burma looks closer.

Who can find more evidence... there must be other old collections with these?

Fernando... Are there any Portuguese museum collections of relevance you can access?

spiral

Jampot10 · 5th November 2014, 08:57 PM

The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location.

Copied from other thread.

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation.

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

5th November 2014, 08:47 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani. Attached Images

5th November 2014, 08:47 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one... Attached Images

5th November 2014, 08:48 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And a last one... Attached Images

5th November 2014, 09:06 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Now here is a cruder form previously discussed on this forum and considered to be Afghan. Attached Images

5th November 2014, 06:51 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago... spiral

5th November 2014, 07:21 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa. This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized. Emanuel

5th November 2014, 09:19 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Some thoughts... Note that the blade is very similar to some short Burmese dha knives in both profile and execution: - single-edged - slight droop towards the edge - well executed fullers on the good example, but flat blade on cruder examples Note the bolster construction which appears to borrow both from Nepalese khukri bolsters, and from Tibetan knives, with a rivet through the bolster well brushed and hidden. The tang construction is unique in that the tang maintains the same section as the blade and is not hidden inside the handle, which has a slot to received it. So far, only the crude Afghan knife above features this tang construction. Otherwise the Tibetan knives feature slab/scale handles, while most khukri and Burmese handles have a hole inside to receive a narrower rat-tail tang. Khukri with slab/scale handles appear in WWII with the British pattern MK2. The circular decorative motif on the handle and sometimes scabbard straps is not a helpful feature in establishing the origin of these knives as it has already been shown many many times on this forum that it is extremely widespread to different cultures around the world. The stamped markings at the base of the blade are like nothing else. They closely resemble flags or maritime symbols to me. The marks are repeated 2-3 times and look like they were struck by the same punch. This suggests a standardized manufacture to me, not simple village production. Emanuel

5th November 2014, 09:23 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I obviously always thought these NWF, Assam, Burma maybe surrounding regions... That being Due to there details of manufacture... the only discrepancy being the exposed partial tang, that is historically usually European.. But personally ill accept Malawi etc. for these... as 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region... Unless or Until someone proves there from the Yao in Burma or some Indian manufacture etc. Indian manufacture in Africa could make more sense to me? But until that time I have to go with available apparently provenaced pieces originally from 3 separate collections, unless some one can dig up another pre.ww2 reference or reliable provenance to prove the BM have got 3 accessions incorrectly listed to donors or they are made by Indian smiths in Africa, etc.etc. When I look at other African Yao stuff I see no similarity... Strangely the Lao Dao from Burma looks closer. Who can find more evidence... there must be other old collections with these? Fernando... Are there any Portuguese museum collections of relevance you can access? spiral

5th November 2014, 08:57 PM	#9
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location. Copied from other thread. I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers. My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin. I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but : British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions. Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation. For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification. The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century. Please let me know your thoughts ?