New yataghan

[Rivkin]

Well, first of all, until recently I did believe that I had quite a collection of damascus kindjals. Now I think that I don't, but some of them have nice etchings . I can not be sure that kindjals I have seen were of XVI century; I've seen one dated sword that part of the signature in georgian, but again - could be some later fake, even through I doubt it. Since at the time I could not read arabic dates, I also have to take the owner's word concerning translation.

The stuff I've seen was very simple, no silver/niello, black horn, nicely laminated blades. The problem is that this all happened so many years ago and way before I started to research those things. I am trying to shake the ppls for pictures, but damn they lazy.

P.S. I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

P.P.S. How do you look at the idea of furthering our contacts with some of the museums ? There is also at least a dozen collectors I heard of, but never got in touch with.

[ariel]

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ariel

Astvatsaturyan wrote that the oldest known Shahka was dated 1713. I am wondering whether the would be Kindjals older than that date: difficult to accept that long bladed, purely fighting, weapons vanished over the years but the shorter, day-to-day, almost utility weapons like Kindjals remained spared.
As you see, I still try to keep my claim for the "oldest Kindjal in the world" alive

Caucasian weapons of 3000bc - 500 ad are rather well researched and described... I would guess there is a big problem with the fact that no literature available on the missing 500-1700ad, with Astvatsaturjan being essentially "caucasian weapons of XVIII-XIX century" book.

The problem with kindjals is that even 1000bc types are somewhat reminiscient of modern kindjals, and really there is not a lot of ways for one to make a short dagger. I would guess there should be a large greay area, where one can not say whether the dagger in question is archaic or "modern type" kindjal.


Can we see your kindjal, pretty please ?

[ariel]

Will do

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I have some sad news about "khevsurian" swords, like the set that Yannis had etc. There is a master that makes georgian "old" swords, he signs his works with one of the following: kharanauli in old georgian (that the sucker's name), or cross on top of a pyramid.

Rivkin, unfortunately for me, your news are already old. I have write about it in this forum, following my own swap post, few months ago. I hope I knew it earlier. Now me and a friend of mine we have already 3 of his swords! I believe it was Ham the first person who noticed it.

Personally I don’t believe that it is the bladesmith’s fault. He signs his work, didn’t he? It is the dealers who I blame, because they sold them as antiques.

The great frustration about khevsur swords is that after this discovery we see with suspicion all of them. It is not fair. As you can see in the photos of the museum and in antique photos there are antique swords. In the future I am going to post in a new thread what I mean.

[ariel]

Here is my Kindjal as promised. Couldn't photograph the markings but you have to believe me: 1181H. The leather is new, the rest is original and in a very good shape. I do not want to polish the blade for fear of removing the markings.

[Rivkin]

Yannis: Yes, I know... There are still a few legitimate sellers who sell real khevsur swords.

Ariel: VVery nice. What is your opinion about the kindjal's origins ?

[ariel]

I have been thinking about the origin myself...
The best would be to read the armourer's mark on the blade and I shall try to find a translator ( afraid, there are very few Chechens around here, though...)
The form might be of help:
Circassian kinjals wer smaller and narrow-er ( except for Shapsughs', but those were shorter). Daghestani/Chechen kindjals had better silverwork, but that was after Shamil; The Great Leader favoured simple iron. The ornament has nothing to do with the traditional Avar/Chechen/Daghestani motives: too simple .
I would stick my neck out and say: Georgian. They had blades of any kind, and 3-rivet handles. Flimsy evidence, to put it mildly, but I can't do better than that. Why couldn't the bugger sign his name on the scabbard??
What do you think?

[Rivkin]

Well, I don't think "amale mussa" or something like this would help us even if it would appear on the scabbard.

1. I don't know if I understood you correctly - there is a mark on the blade, and it is not in arabic ? You suspect it's in chechen ??? I can have it translated, but I am really puzzled by this fact.

2. IMHO: it's definitely not chechen, most likely not dagestanian. I've seen too few circassian kindjals to say anything (I heard many times about shapsugian wide kindjals, but never seen one). Definitely not armenian, and not osethian. Georgian ? There is however one thing - we can make our judgement based on XIX century styles, but I don't think we have an extensive knowledge of earlier kindjals (I don't remember any pre XIX century kindjals in Astvatsaturjan). It may be that earlier niello was indeed more primitive than super-elaborate XIX century styles.

I would really like to see this mark you refer to.

[ham]

Gentlemen,

Actually, this is Chechen work. Culturally, the Chechens were more closely associated with the Cherkess-- their belief in Nart cosmogony stands as evidence for this. Due largely to geography, they were often politically aligned with Daghestan during the 19th century. As a result, their decorative repetoire could include the entire range of Circassian motifs but also drew on Daghestan styles as well. Sparse engraving and use of niello and gilding were found side by side with extensive engraving, chiselling and large, complex areas of niello.
After the Murid Wars, and increasingly into the early 20th century, Chechen work was also distinguishable by a sometimes random combination of these styles, with no particular one prevailing-- sorry to say, as time went on, the workmanship was rarely equal to either of its cultural ancestors. The motifs on the scabbard and lower grip mount of this kindjal are a simplified "spiral vine" often worked in fine relief by Kubachi smiths. Here, it has been deeply engraved into the silver and heavily embellished in niello. Unfortunately, neither the grip buttons nor the central decoration assist in establishing a place of origin as they are all associated-- the buttons from a belt and the central ornament from a horse trapping. This however indicates the paucity of materials in early 20th century Chechnia, and the desire to maintain traditional motifs. It is typical of Chechen weapons which survived the Revolution and First World War.
The grip of this dagger is also closely derived from a particularly popular Kubachi type usually rendered entirely in silver, ivory, or a combination thereof. Great store was set by heirloom blades, hence the appearance of an early date on the blade of the kindjal under discussion is not incredible though the mounts clearly postdate it.
Caucasian arms, perhaps more than any others save Indonesian, require a great deal of study of individual examples in order to begin to be able to categorize them. The Russian and Turkish museums afford the best selection for the serious student but can be difficult to gain access to. The works of Mrs. Astvatsaturian and Mr. Askhabov are likewise invaluable and now, thanks to the internet, generally available.
Posting an image of the mark on the blade would probably be very helpful.

Sincerely,

Ham