Go on...show us your Choora!!

Gavin Nugent · 1st November 2014, 03:16 PM

Hi Ariel,

It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking.

The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help.

If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand.

This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.)

I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art.

So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance.

Gavin

ariel · 1st November 2014, 03:47 PM

Hi Gavin,
Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century.

As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th.

I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!

ariel · 1st November 2014, 08:54 PM

And, BTW, can anyone show us examples of the unquestionably Central Asian -made wootz blades?

They have used Persian wootz blades and just dressed them according to the local fashion. Thus, it wood be interesting to see what those Bukharan or Afghani blade smiths were capable of. Then we hopefully can compare the quality of Choora blades to the standards, Persian or local.

Egerton specifically mentioned Khorasan as one of production sites, thus Gavin's example might be a remounted one.

Gavin Nugent · 1st November 2014, 11:50 PM

Here are some Ariel, a perfectly preserved pair of Wootz Bukharan pichoq, turquoise encrusted silver hilts with garnet, silver and Niello bolsters sitting in their original cloth suspension with silver dressed and gilded sheaths attached.

I understand this type of item to be political gifts and also circa 1900, give or take a couple of decades.

With regards to the Choora I presented, the chiselled spine designs appear very true to the region as does the polished sections of the blade being a NW Indian thing to my knowledge. Of course the polished panels could be added anytime by someone with the knowledge to do so.

Gavin

David R · 2nd November 2014, 01:07 PM

Here's my example, more of a Khyber Knife being 58cm long in total, but described as a Choora by Ian B at the Armouries. Bought a few years ago, before the recent involvement and so most likely dating to an earlier Imperial campaign. 19thC?

Gavin Nugent · 2nd November 2014, 01:38 PM

Certainly a Khyber knife David, it doesn't follow the form of the Choora despite some aspects having a shared similarity.

Gavin

ariel · 2nd November 2014, 04:24 PM

Thanks Gavin,
Good beginning of a database. The main problem is that it is likely to be Bukhara and Afghanistan.

Capt. Masalski saw manufacture of Central-Asian wootz in the 1850s if my memory is correct.

Any documented evidence of its production in Afganistan proper, especially around the Khyber Pass? Kabul or Jellalabad, as per Egerton?

1st November 2014, 03:16 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The more I look Hi Ariel, It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking. The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help. If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand. This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.) I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art. So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance. Gavin

1st November 2014, 08:54 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And, BTW, can anyone show us examples of the unquestionably Central Asian -made wootz blades? They have used Persian wootz blades and just dressed them according to the local fashion. Thus, it wood be interesting to see what those Bukharan or Afghani blade smiths were capable of. Then we hopefully can compare the quality of Choora blades to the standards, Persian or local. Egerton specifically mentioned Khorasan as one of production sites, thus Gavin's example might be a remounted one. Last edited by ariel; 1st November 2014 at 09:08 PM.

1st November 2014, 11:50 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Central Asian Wootz Here are some Ariel, a perfectly preserved pair of Wootz Bukharan pichoq, turquoise encrusted silver hilts with garnet, silver and Niello bolsters sitting in their original cloth suspension with silver dressed and gilded sheaths attached. I understand this type of item to be political gifts and also circa 1900, give or take a couple of decades. With regards to the Choora I presented, the chiselled spine designs appear very true to the region as does the polished sections of the blade being a NW Indian thing to my knowledge. Of course the polished panels could be added anytime by someone with the knowledge to do so. Gavin Attached Images

2nd November 2014, 01:07 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Here's my example, more of a Khyber Knife being 58cm long in total, but described as a Choora by Ian B at the Armouries. Bought a few years ago, before the recent involvement and so most likely dating to an earlier Imperial campaign. 19thC? Attached Images

1st November 2014, 03:47 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Gavin, Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century. As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th. I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!

2nd November 2014, 01:38 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Certainly a Khyber knife David, it doesn't follow the form of the Choora despite some aspects having a shared similarity. Gavin

2nd November 2014, 04:24 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Gavin, Good beginning of a database. The main problem is that it is likely to be Bukhara and Afghanistan. Capt. Masalski saw manufacture of Central-Asian wootz in the 1850s if my memory is correct. Any documented evidence of its production in Afganistan proper, especially around the Khyber Pass? Kabul or Jellalabad, as per Egerton?