Help needed with a Mamluk kilij

ALEX · 17th October 2014, 09:00 PM

Roland,
The blade is certainly tempered/heat-treated if it is that tough. My first impression was that it is sheer steel or sham wootz, although it has appearance of wootz near the edge. The fact that initial etch did not improve the pattern also indicative of that. Let's hope better etch will reveal it better.
There is no need to submerge the whole blade in the tube, I think it is not necessary in case of one sword. The same result can be achieved just by applying the etchant with the brush or cotton cloth.
I also noticed the central fuller... not exactly as I'd expect on early Ottoman blade...
... just initial observations at this point.
Are those gray lines part of the pattern or incised/cut on the surface?
Great job polishing the blade by the way. Outstanding!
--
Also, can we see closeup of the hilt and cross? Is handle made of stone or hardwood?

A.alnakkas · 18th October 2014, 03:06 AM

I think its wootz, not shear steel. Though dont think its Mamluke, the fullering and the dots is more similar to northern Indian/Afghan types.

Can we see more of the hilt please?

ALEX · 18th October 2014, 07:36 AM

Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

Kurt · 18th October 2014, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

Hi Alex ,
This is an Ottoman Karabela end of 17 century.
Kurt

ALEX · 18th October 2014, 02:27 PM

Kurt, speaking of blade only - below is a typical Afghan pulowar with Kilij profile, false edge and central fuller. I cannot recall early Ottoman blade with narrowly cut central fuller like this. Those have much better, more elaborate fullers... just a thought

A.alnakkas · 18th October 2014, 08:38 PM

This is why I asked for close ups of the hilt. Because there is some East Europeans who buy old Indian swords and rehilt them as karabelas. This possibly could be one, but we can only get close to knowing if we look at the hilt.

ALEX · 18th October 2014, 10:01 PM

This is one way to tell. Another is to NOT to look at the hilt, and look at the blade alone as the hilt and/or cross can be old. but seeing closeups will certainly help.

ariel · 19th October 2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

This is why I asked for close ups of the hilt. Because there is some East Europeans who buy old Indian swords and rehilt them as karabelas. This possibly could be one, but we can only get close to knowing if we look at the hilt.

I am with you. IMHO, too, this is a modern hybrid of a 19th century N. Indian blade and recently made handle/crossguard.
A close look at the handle is very important.

18th October 2014, 02:27 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kurt, speaking of blade only - below is a typical Afghan pulowar with Kilij profile, false edge and central fuller. I cannot recall early Ottoman blade with narrowly cut central fuller like this. Those have much better, more elaborate fullers... just a thought Attached Images

17th October 2014, 09:00 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Roland, The blade is certainly tempered/heat-treated if it is that tough. My first impression was that it is sheer steel or sham wootz, although it has appearance of wootz near the edge. The fact that initial etch did not improve the pattern also indicative of that. Let's hope better etch will reveal it better. There is no need to submerge the whole blade in the tube, I think it is not necessary in case of one sword. The same result can be achieved just by applying the etchant with the brush or cotton cloth. I also noticed the central fuller... not exactly as I'd expect on early Ottoman blade... ... just initial observations at this point. Are those gray lines part of the pattern or incised/cut on the surface? Great job polishing the blade by the way. Outstanding! -- Also, can we see closeup of the hilt and cross? Is handle made of stone or hardwood?

18th October 2014, 03:06 AM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I think its wootz, not shear steel. Though dont think its Mamluke, the fullering and the dots is more similar to northern Indian/Afghan types. Can we see more of the hilt please?

18th October 2014, 07:36 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Good observation! the blade remainds of what one would expext on Indian/Afghan pulowar. I also think it is not Ottoman. The steel could be sham wootz, but need to see more.

18th October 2014, 08:38 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	This is why I asked for close ups of the hilt. Because there is some East Europeans who buy old Indian swords and rehilt them as karabelas. This possibly could be one, but we can only get close to knowing if we look at the hilt.

18th October 2014, 10:01 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	This is one way to tell. Another is to NOT to look at the hilt, and look at the blade alone as the hilt and/or cross can be old. but seeing closeups will certainly help.