Opinions please

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2014, 11:24 PM

Thanks for your contribution Jean.

The thrust of my question concerns :-

"--- the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java. "

In other words I am seeking opinions about how outside influences may have affected or contributed to the way in which the Javanese regarded the Javanese keris.

We can identify many purely physical contributions, contributions that are also seen in the wider field of Javanese art and culture, one very obvious example can be used to illustrate this, the way in which the singo barong is rendered. The singo barong is seen as a lion, on a keris it possibly carries association with a warrior, and this association is in a direct line from Hindu culture, however, there are no lions in Jawa, so when it came time to produce an image of a lion, the Javanese drew upon Chinese representations of a lion, and now we have these pretty little fu-dog lions that in Javanese understanding can be interpreted as lions. A combination of Hindu + Chinese input to Javanese artistic expression.

Alternatively, maybe the entire interpretation of the singo barong as being associated with the warrior is wrong:- maybe it is a direct lift from Chinese culture, and a very strong argument can be mounted for this.

But these things are physical.

What I am trying to get opinions on is the way in which factors from outside Javanese culture and society may have influenced the way in which the Javanese people regarded something that has become one of their major cultural symbols.

As to the possibility of outside influences on the Balinese keris, I suggest that nothing can be taken for granted. Bear this in mind:- I am not looking for physical influences, but rather how an outside factor may have contributed to an internal cultural perception or belief.

It is inarguable that Indian and Chinese contact with Jawa existed from a very early time, I think it is accepted that Indian contact existed from the second century AD, and Chinese contact from perhaps a little later, but in any case both India and China were contributing to Javanese cultural development well before the period that saw the appearance of the Modern Keris. In fact, in the 1950's, when I began my study of Jawa, I was repeatedly told that Jawa was an Indian sub-culture. This point of view has now altered, but this is the way Jawa used to be seen, not as a culture in its own right, but rather as a sub-culture of India.

So, how did influences from outside Jawa contribute to or influence the way in which the Javanese people have regarded, and now regard, the Javanese keris?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2014, 11:26 PM

Giovanni, this was a question of mine for many years, and although I do have an answer of sorts, it remains only partially clarified, I believe.

Many years ago I put this question to a Balinese priest whom I knew very well. His answer was brief:- "big man : big keris".

Some time later I put the same question to a very well known keris authority from outside Bali, but who has spent considerable time in Bali. His answer came back in almost the same words :- "big man : big keris" (they were the same words actually, but the Balinese gentleman was speaking in Indonesian, the authority was speaking in English)

There are two ways to understand this statement, firstly, overall the Balinese are taller and more strongly built than the Javanese, so for a keris to be in proportion to body size, a Balinese keris would need to be considerably larger than a Javanese keris.

The other way it can be understood is if the keris size were to be used as a hierarchical indicator, where the concept of "big man" would be interpreted as a man of higher status. It should be noted that Bali is an intensely hierarchical society.

These two things are also worth noting:- many of the old North Coast Jawa keris were at least as large as a Balinese keris. Not many of these keris exist anymore, but apparently they were quite prevalent in previous times. It seems that most of these "super-size" Javanese keris were turned into keris of a more marketable nature. The second thing worthy of mention is that some very early Balinese keris were quite small, I have one early Balinese keris that would seem to be able to be classified as Majapahit, and this keris is smaller than the average Javanese keris, apart from this keris, I have seen and owned other quite small Balinese keris.

Timo Nieminen · 9th October 2014, 12:50 AM

One sees in many countries a strong emphasis put on a selection of traditional cultural symbols in response to modernisation, or colonial domination, or foreign influence. Sometimes new things are re-configured as new "traditional" cultural symbols. This can occur as resistance to foreign/colonial pressure to change, or as reclamation of traditional cultural markers after gaining independence after colonial rule.

Some of the cultural things so emphasised in some countries include traditional dress, traditional festivals, traditional food (or "traditional" food, often less than a century old), song, dance, theatre, royalty, martial arts, national weapons.

I don't have an answer, but I have a question: is this important in Java, and for the keris in Java?

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2014, 01:53 AM

Timo, you have answered my question with a question, and I can give you a direct response:-

Yes.

But why?

There has probably been more nonsense spoken and written about the keris than about any other edged weapon, or cultural icon. The reasons for this are many and complex, but what we do know is that the nature of the keris has continually changed over the more than 1000 years of its existence.

The core of keris culture, and its place of origin is Jawa. Jawa is also the place of keris culture that has been subjected to the greatest degree of continuous influence by factors from outside Javanese society.

For anybody to understand the keris and its place in Javanese culture that person must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people themselves understand the keris. This is not to say that an outsider must understand the keris in the same way as it is understood in the varying layers of Javanese society, but the outsider must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris. Thus, an understanding of an understanding, or perhaps an understanding of a number of understandings.

For this understanding of an outsider to develop it is necessary to address many aspects of the keris presence in Jawa. During the period of existence of the Modern Keris those two greatest outside influences on Javanese society have been Islam and the presence of Europeans along with their colonial ambitions.

Therefore it would seem to be of vital importance for the serious student of the keris to attempt to gain some insight into the way in which these two outside influences of Islam and the Europeans contributed to the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris.

GIO · 9th October 2014, 11:19 AM

Thanks for your reply, Alan
Could the size of the kerises depend upon the availability of iron in the various areas ? I think that the possibility of finding iron and nickel/iron was a major problem.

Sajen · 9th October 2014, 05:41 PM

Hello Alan,

you ask a not easy to answer question, special regarding the influence of the Islam upon the the Javanese cultural perception of the keris since I know not enough about the Javanese cultural perception of the keris before Islam coming to Java.
But frankly said I think that this influence wasn't so great like others maybe think. By my first visit on Java 1992 I was surprised, special in Central and East Java, about the very own interpretation of Islam on Java. This changed in the time until now but I think that this can be neglect regarding your question. The outer appearance of the keris may have changed by Islamic influence but nothing else. I may be completley wrong so I would like to read your own opinion about this.
The colonial influence was much greater IMHO since middle of last century the "keris culture" was nearly moribund. This was prevent again by outside influence by only a few persons like yourself and Dietrich Drescher who has had a great effect that the keris forging don't died. Again, I could be completely wrong by my statement and would like to read your own opinion about this.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2014, 10:27 PM

Thanks for your contribution Detlef.

Yes, it is far from an easy question, and this is the reason that I asked it.

Perhaps any statement of opinion needs to begin with a statement that clarifies one's understanding of the way(s) in which Javanese society perceives the keris at the present time.

Then perhaps it may be possible to unravel the various current perceptions and attempt to form some sort of opinion on how these current perceptions might have arisen.

Detlef, you have made a very valid point when you identify the need for a baseline that puts the keris into a pre-Islamic, pre-European contact setting. Once this baseline has been established it then might become possible to identify the changing nature of the keris throughout time, and possibly speculate upon reasons for these changes. Obviously this cannot be done in the absence of at least some relevant knowledge. Perhaps my "Interpretation" article might be of some assistance in helping to form an understanding of the possible baseline.

Detlef, I currently have a number of opinions about the changing nature of the keris in Jawa, but I will not state those opinions until such time as I can support them. The reason I have put this question up for everybody to take a shot at is to try to understand how broadly interested people in the world outside Jawa understand the Javanese perception of the keris.

It may help to form opinions if we look at some of the facets of the Javanese keris.

It is a weapon, a personal talisman, a family inheritance, a work of art, a store of wealth, an item of formal dress, it has religious associations, it is a symbol of its custodian, an hierarchical indicator, a symbol of its culture, an endorsement of the right to rule --- and that is the short list.

Did all these things apply at the moment of its appearance in Javanese society, or did it gradually accumulate some of these attributes as time passed?

If the attributes were gradually accumulated, is it possible to identify factors that may have caused an attribute to be attached to the keris?

These are the sort of things that we need to consider in order to form opinions that could be used to respond to my question.

As you say Detlef:- not an easy question.

8th October 2014, 11:24 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your contribution Jean. The thrust of my question concerns :- "--- the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java. " In other words I am seeking opinions about how outside influences may have affected or contributed to the way in which the Javanese regarded the Javanese keris. We can identify many purely physical contributions, contributions that are also seen in the wider field of Javanese art and culture, one very obvious example can be used to illustrate this, the way in which the singo barong is rendered. The singo barong is seen as a lion, on a keris it possibly carries association with a warrior, and this association is in a direct line from Hindu culture, however, there are no lions in Jawa, so when it came time to produce an image of a lion, the Javanese drew upon Chinese representations of a lion, and now we have these pretty little fu-dog lions that in Javanese understanding can be interpreted as lions. A combination of Hindu + Chinese input to Javanese artistic expression. Alternatively, maybe the entire interpretation of the singo barong as being associated with the warrior is wrong:- maybe it is a direct lift from Chinese culture, and a very strong argument can be mounted for this. But these things are physical. What I am trying to get opinions on is the way in which factors from outside Javanese culture and society may have influenced the way in which the Javanese people regarded something that has become one of their major cultural symbols. As to the possibility of outside influences on the Balinese keris, I suggest that nothing can be taken for granted. Bear this in mind:- I am not looking for physical influences, but rather how an outside factor may have contributed to an internal cultural perception or belief. It is inarguable that Indian and Chinese contact with Jawa existed from a very early time, I think it is accepted that Indian contact existed from the second century AD, and Chinese contact from perhaps a little later, but in any case both India and China were contributing to Javanese cultural development well before the period that saw the appearance of the Modern Keris. In fact, in the 1950's, when I began my study of Jawa, I was repeatedly told that Jawa was an Indian sub-culture. This point of view has now altered, but this is the way Jawa used to be seen, not as a culture in its own right, but rather as a sub-culture of India. So, how did influences from outside Jawa contribute to or influence the way in which the Javanese people have regarded, and now regard, the Javanese keris?

8th October 2014, 11:26 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Giovanni, this was a question of mine for many years, and although I do have an answer of sorts, it remains only partially clarified, I believe. Many years ago I put this question to a Balinese priest whom I knew very well. His answer was brief:- "big man : big keris". Some time later I put the same question to a very well known keris authority from outside Bali, but who has spent considerable time in Bali. His answer came back in almost the same words :- "big man : big keris" (they were the same words actually, but the Balinese gentleman was speaking in Indonesian, the authority was speaking in English) There are two ways to understand this statement, firstly, overall the Balinese are taller and more strongly built than the Javanese, so for a keris to be in proportion to body size, a Balinese keris would need to be considerably larger than a Javanese keris. The other way it can be understood is if the keris size were to be used as a hierarchical indicator, where the concept of "big man" would be interpreted as a man of higher status. It should be noted that Bali is an intensely hierarchical society. These two things are also worth noting:- many of the old North Coast Jawa keris were at least as large as a Balinese keris. Not many of these keris exist anymore, but apparently they were quite prevalent in previous times. It seems that most of these "super-size" Javanese keris were turned into keris of a more marketable nature. The second thing worthy of mention is that some very early Balinese keris were quite small, I have one early Balinese keris that would seem to be able to be classified as Majapahit, and this keris is smaller than the average Javanese keris, apart from this keris, I have seen and owned other quite small Balinese keris.

9th October 2014, 12:50 AM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	One sees in many countries a strong emphasis put on a selection of traditional cultural symbols in response to modernisation, or colonial domination, or foreign influence. Sometimes new things are re-configured as new "traditional" cultural symbols. This can occur as resistance to foreign/colonial pressure to change, or as reclamation of traditional cultural markers after gaining independence after colonial rule. Some of the cultural things so emphasised in some countries include traditional dress, traditional festivals, traditional food (or "traditional" food, often less than a century old), song, dance, theatre, royalty, martial arts, national weapons. I don't have an answer, but I have a question: is this important in Java, and for the keris in Java?

9th October 2014, 01:53 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Timo, you have answered my question with a question, and I can give you a direct response:- Yes. But why? There has probably been more nonsense spoken and written about the keris than about any other edged weapon, or cultural icon. The reasons for this are many and complex, but what we do know is that the nature of the keris has continually changed over the more than 1000 years of its existence. The core of keris culture, and its place of origin is Jawa. Jawa is also the place of keris culture that has been subjected to the greatest degree of continuous influence by factors from outside Javanese society. For anybody to understand the keris and its place in Javanese culture that person must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people themselves understand the keris. This is not to say that an outsider must understand the keris in the same way as it is understood in the varying layers of Javanese society, but the outsider must be able to understand the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris. Thus, an understanding of an understanding, or perhaps an understanding of a number of understandings. For this understanding of an outsider to develop it is necessary to address many aspects of the keris presence in Jawa. During the period of existence of the Modern Keris those two greatest outside influences on Javanese society have been Islam and the presence of Europeans along with their colonial ambitions. Therefore it would seem to be of vital importance for the serious student of the keris to attempt to gain some insight into the way in which these two outside influences of Islam and the Europeans contributed to the way in which the Javanese people understand the keris.

9th October 2014, 11:19 AM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	Thanks for your reply, Alan Could the size of the kerises depend upon the availability of iron in the various areas ? I think that the possibility of finding iron and nickel/iron was a major problem.

9th October 2014, 05:41 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Alan, you ask a not easy to answer question, special regarding the influence of the Islam upon the the Javanese cultural perception of the keris since I know not enough about the Javanese cultural perception of the keris before Islam coming to Java. But frankly said I think that this influence wasn't so great like others maybe think. By my first visit on Java 1992 I was surprised, special in Central and East Java, about the very own interpretation of Islam on Java. This changed in the time until now but I think that this can be neglect regarding your question. The outer appearance of the keris may have changed by Islamic influence but nothing else. I may be completley wrong so I would like to read your own opinion about this. The colonial influence was much greater IMHO since middle of last century the "keris culture" was nearly moribund. This was prevent again by outside influence by only a few persons like yourself and Dietrich Drescher who has had a great effect that the keris forging don't died. Again, I could be completely wrong by my statement and would like to read your own opinion about this. Regards, Detlef

9th October 2014, 10:27 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your contribution Detlef. Yes, it is far from an easy question, and this is the reason that I asked it. Perhaps any statement of opinion needs to begin with a statement that clarifies one's understanding of the way(s) in which Javanese society perceives the keris at the present time. Then perhaps it may be possible to unravel the various current perceptions and attempt to form some sort of opinion on how these current perceptions might have arisen. Detlef, you have made a very valid point when you identify the need for a baseline that puts the keris into a pre-Islamic, pre-European contact setting. Once this baseline has been established it then might become possible to identify the changing nature of the keris throughout time, and possibly speculate upon reasons for these changes. Obviously this cannot be done in the absence of at least some relevant knowledge. Perhaps my "Interpretation" article might be of some assistance in helping to form an understanding of the possible baseline. Detlef, I currently have a number of opinions about the changing nature of the keris in Jawa, but I will not state those opinions until such time as I can support them. The reason I have put this question up for everybody to take a shot at is to try to understand how broadly interested people in the world outside Jawa understand the Javanese perception of the keris. It may help to form opinions if we look at some of the facets of the Javanese keris. It is a weapon, a personal talisman, a family inheritance, a work of art, a store of wealth, an item of formal dress, it has religious associations, it is a symbol of its custodian, an hierarchical indicator, a symbol of its culture, an endorsement of the right to rule --- and that is the short list. Did all these things apply at the moment of its appearance in Javanese society, or did it gradually accumulate some of these attributes as time passed? If the attributes were gradually accumulated, is it possible to identify factors that may have caused an attribute to be attached to the keris? These are the sort of things that we need to consider in order to form opinions that could be used to respond to my question. As you say Detlef:- not an easy question.