Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

In my opinion this is most likely a Chinese example. Its construction and form is quite consistent with many examples I have seen and handled, many purchased directly from China.

Do you have any pictures of some of the ones purchased from China so we can compare, as far as I know the Chinese do not allow export of their antique weapons, they do export vast amounts of fakes, some quite good. On the other hand I have seen several antique sai that originated from Japan, which makes sense since Okinawa was part of Japan for several hundred years. I am not saying that it is impossible that the Chinese did not make and use sai of this exact type, its just that I have so far not seen any evidence that they did, the antique sai that I have seen that were labeled as Chinese looked quite different. Here is another sai that originated in Japan, again quite similar to the one being discussed.

[Neil]

I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Neil

I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.

Okinawa was close to both China and Japan so it would not be unusual for a Chinese influence to be seen in Okinawan sai, I know for a fact that two of the sai I posted came here directly from Japan, and there is way more chance that they got to Japan through Okinawa than through China. Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.



Here are two searches, one for "Chinese sai" and one for "Okinawan sai", see what both bring up.

Chinese sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=chin...w=1842&bih=995


Okinawan sai.
https://www.google.com/search?q=okin...w=1842&bih=995

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Several forum members have mentioned China as a possibility of the origin for the sai being discussed here but so far no one has posted any Chinese sai to compare with or any reference from a book.

Here's a Chinese example (the Japanese name would be "manji no sai"; I don't know if there is a specific Chinese name, or whether it is just "cha" like a normal sai). In rather poor condition. 715g.

Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.)

These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon.

Also attached is a picture of an iron ruler that's half-way to becoming a sai. (Pg. 55 in 中国古代冷兵器 (Ancient Chinese cold weapon)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.)

These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon.

Timo, I personally have not seen an authentic, antique sai that was proven to have originated from China and looked anything like the sai currently posted, they may have had some similarities but they also had glaring differences.

I have watched, dealers, auctions, Ebay, Yahoo Japan for years and have only seen a couple of antique sai, surviving ones are rare. Of the ones I posted I know for sure that two came directly from Japan, and one came here from Indonesia, the other one was said to be from Japan but I have no proof. So if I see a sai that is of unknown origin and it is quite similar to the ones I know did not come from China I have to assume that it is not Chinese.

Here are two Chinese sai, as you can see they have some similarity to the sai previously posted but they have more in common with the ones you posted.

[estcrh]

Here is a quick comparison, notice the similarities.

[Timo Nieminen]

Some more (possibly) Chinese cha/sai:

Group of Highbinder weapons including a sai: http://amst312.umwblogs.org/2009/01/29/the-highbinders/

http://www.jikishinkobudo.com/articl...ection/8756081

Further to my earlier comments on trying to identify the origin of a particular sai, Okinawa was a major trade centre, connecting China, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines. A lot of trade went through Okinawa, with Chinese goods proceeding to Japan and the Philippines, and Japanese goods going to Chinese and SE Asia. Given domestic Okinawan iron production being what it was (I've seen it described as "absent"), a lot of "Okinawan" iron goods may well have been imported in the finished state, rather than being locally made.