Sahel ? dagger

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2014, 05:57 PM

What I always find intriguing is that even 20th century examples of Sudanese daggers often carry various crudely inscribed markings, and often in these linear fashion groupings. It seems compelling proof of deep symbolic meanings in many of the markings on these weapons which far exceed the idea that natives simply copied established markings to signify quality etc as with spurious European markings.

Obviously in many cases, perhaps even this one, this crude application may simply be simulated motif seen on other arms, but many 'rocker' type designs may have that deeper significance.

It would be interesting to see other Sudanese daggers with markings of this kind to look further into these possibilities.

DaveA · 26th September 2014, 11:14 PM

Hi Jim,

Here are three knives from Sudan with interesting markings. Perhaps they will be useful for your research!

Best,

Dave A.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2014, 02:48 AM

WOW! Those are superb examples Dave! Thank you so much!
These show pretty much what I mean about symbolism, and often these configurations are applied by tribesmen themselves as well as by local artisans. While as I noted, in many cases these stylized motif are copying decoration seen elsewhere, examples such as in the dagger in photo #2 with the linear arcs paired .....and these are imitating the 'Lohr' panel seen on the upper blade of many kaskara.

The geometric lines and dots seem to imitate certain 'map' type configurations with strategic locations represented on some Islamic blades. Geometrics and symmetry are key symbolism often seen in tribal folk religion and talismanic imbuement .

I really do appreciate these additions Dave, and definitely ideal additions to my notes!

DaveA · 27th September 2014, 03:21 AM

Happy to be of service! I ask only that you share your findings.

Now that I know what you are looking for, I will dig deeper and see what else I can find.

- Dave

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2014, 04:33 AM

You bet Dave! That is what we do here, and while research is often slow, it is always good to see threads from some time ago reopened with new data. These threads are archives which always remain 'open cases' and always essentially active, so hopefully others will also join in adding examples they have or have seen.
Thank you again!!!
Jim

27th September 2014, 03:21 AM	#4
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Good! Happy to be of service! I ask only that you share your findings. Now that I know what you are looking for, I will dig deeper and see what else I can find. - Dave

26th September 2014, 05:57 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	What I always find intriguing is that even 20th century examples of Sudanese daggers often carry various crudely inscribed markings, and often in these linear fashion groupings. It seems compelling proof of deep symbolic meanings in many of the markings on these weapons which far exceed the idea that natives simply copied established markings to signify quality etc as with spurious European markings. Obviously in many cases, perhaps even this one, this crude application may simply be simulated motif seen on other arms, but many 'rocker' type designs may have that deeper significance. It would be interesting to see other Sudanese daggers with markings of this kind to look further into these possibilities.

26th September 2014, 11:14 PM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	A three-knife case of knives from Sudan Hi Jim, Here are three knives from Sudan with interesting markings. Perhaps they will be useful for your research! Best, Dave A. Attached Images

27th September 2014, 02:48 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	WOW! Those are superb examples Dave! Thank you so much! These show pretty much what I mean about symbolism, and often these configurations are applied by tribesmen themselves as well as by local artisans. While as I noted, in many cases these stylized motif are copying decoration seen elsewhere, examples such as in the dagger in photo #2 with the linear arcs paired .....and these are imitating the 'Lohr' panel seen on the upper blade of many kaskara. The geometric lines and dots seem to imitate certain 'map' type configurations with strategic locations represented on some Islamic blades. Geometrics and symmetry are key symbolism often seen in tribal folk religion and talismanic imbuement . I really do appreciate these additions Dave, and definitely ideal additions to my notes!

27th September 2014, 04:33 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	You bet Dave! That is what we do here, and while research is often slow, it is always good to see threads from some time ago reopened with new data. These threads are archives which always remain 'open cases' and always essentially active, so hopefully others will also join in adding examples they have or have seen. Thank you again!!! Jim