Dime el Aterro

fernando · 18th September 2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

... To my eye, this looks to have come from an Indian sword back to a EU hilt type. Look at the shadow of wear left on the blade, it is typical Indian Khanda langet marks and what looks like to be a filled hole where a rivet would typically be. ...

No doubt about that, Gav; i have noticed that too, but neglected such angle. However in a fantasy it could be a 'come and go', that is, a Firangi blade being traded to India for a local style sword and later remounted on an Eurpean type hilt.
On the other hand, a third possibility is now on the table; an Indian blade, with nonsense inscriptions ?

Gavin Nugent · 18th September 2014, 02:07 PM

One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2014, 11:34 PM

Gav,
This interesting basket hilt seems pretty composite to me, and as you have well observed, there are indications of a previous langet presence as seen on khanda (firangi). This well worn old Solingen blade is of the form often seen on many examples of these firangi.
I recall many discussions with Juan Perez well over a decade ago when we determined that the "Spanish motto' swords were never produced in Spain but in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies.
There are considerable volumes of these 'dragoon' blades which seem produced around 1760s to 1780s and are usually of the hexagonal section Mark has noted, however there seem to have been some other variations.

These ended up in the frontier regions of New Spain, as well as in Cuba and other Spanish ports of call, and were often mounted in the Bilbo and cuphilt forms of arming swords, as well as profoundly shortened on espada anchas.

This 'motto' seems to have been around for some time prior according to research done by Fernando, and existed in French as well. In most cases these 'mottos' were typically in 'distorted' syntax, wording and spellings as Solingen smiths fashioned these inscriptions to suit various clientele.

It is certainly similar case with this 'motto' or 'phrase', and as has been shown the blades bearing them ended up moving through trade networks an all manner of diffusion. Many of these blades have undoubtedly had remarkable 'working lives'.

It would appear this one found a new home with an English basket guard, what appears to be a Scottish conical pommel, and as noted, a well worn backsword blade, all 18th century components, with an interesting cord wrap which resembles that I have seen on Chinese da dao ring pommel type swords (not inferring that China is in any way involved with this sword) .

It is hard to say whether this assemblage might be in colonial cirumstances and using available parts, however, I would point out that British forces were well established in India in the 18th century with the EIC. A great many basket hilts ended up there with the British army, and it would not be surprising to see components of these 18th century dragoon swords hilts and good German blades (from previous Indian use) joined before and after Seringapatam (1799). I have found instances of many of the Indian forces after that battle and during British occupation ended up in British military units, and much as in the native military unit traditions which evolved in the British Raj, many swords for native sergeants and officers were rather ersatz type examples.
I have seen photos of ranking officials and officers of such units later, in one instance an officer of the 'Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt of apparently some vintage, the image from around 1880.

18th September 2014, 02:07 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One hell of a round the world journey...EU regionally made, then in to India and back to EU dress...what date does the EU hilt fall in?

18th September 2014, 11:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Gav, This interesting basket hilt seems pretty composite to me, and as you have well observed, there are indications of a previous langet presence as seen on khanda (firangi). This well worn old Solingen blade is of the form often seen on many examples of these firangi. I recall many discussions with Juan Perez well over a decade ago when we determined that the "Spanish motto' swords were never produced in Spain but in Solingen for export to the Spanish colonies. There are considerable volumes of these 'dragoon' blades which seem produced around 1760s to 1780s and are usually of the hexagonal section Mark has noted, however there seem to have been some other variations. These ended up in the frontier regions of New Spain, as well as in Cuba and other Spanish ports of call, and were often mounted in the Bilbo and cuphilt forms of arming swords, as well as profoundly shortened on espada anchas. This 'motto' seems to have been around for some time prior according to research done by Fernando, and existed in French as well. In most cases these 'mottos' were typically in 'distorted' syntax, wording and spellings as Solingen smiths fashioned these inscriptions to suit various clientele. It is certainly similar case with this 'motto' or 'phrase', and as has been shown the blades bearing them ended up moving through trade networks an all manner of diffusion. Many of these blades have undoubtedly had remarkable 'working lives'. It would appear this one found a new home with an English basket guard, what appears to be a Scottish conical pommel, and as noted, a well worn backsword blade, all 18th century components, with an interesting cord wrap which resembles that I have seen on Chinese da dao ring pommel type swords (not inferring that China is in any way involved with this sword) . It is hard to say whether this assemblage might be in colonial cirumstances and using available parts, however, I would point out that British forces were well established in India in the 18th century with the EIC. A great many basket hilts ended up there with the British army, and it would not be surprising to see components of these 18th century dragoon swords hilts and good German blades (from previous Indian use) joined before and after Seringapatam (1799). I have found instances of many of the Indian forces after that battle and during British occupation ended up in British military units, and much as in the native military unit traditions which evolved in the British Raj, many swords for native sergeants and officers were rather ersatz type examples. I have seen photos of ranking officials and officers of such units later, in one instance an officer of the 'Khyber Rifles' with a basket hilt of apparently some vintage, the image from around 1880.