English made Kacchin Dha...

spiral · 11th September 2014, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Spiral, the Kachin "sword-dao" with the flared pommel and flared, flat tips are often laminated steel.

Of the swords we collectively refer to as "dah", "dha", or "daab", I have only seen a handful with obvious laminate construction prior to etching. One such is pictured below, with the Burmese date of 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 C.E.) inlaid at the forte in gold (previously believed to be brass). The blade is extremely thin, for this type of weapon, light, flexible and razor-sharp. One of the finest Continental SEA sword blades I have ever seen. It also appears in an early W.D. Oldman catalog.

Many (even most) have differentially-hardened edges. Some have inserted edges similar to Chinese san-mei, and I have one very fine example that exhibits a crystalline structure when etched/polished I would like to believe is crucible-steel (but more likely shear

).

Fascinating Andrew, I do love the Kachin double hairpin ones, I think there amazing!

Sadley never had one, seen 2 in small UK auctions in the last 14 years, but one was before the kukris , so I couldn't bid high enough & the other time it was after the kukris & Id spent my money.

Looking back I should have got the Dha... The kukri were good , but A dha like that is special I think.

Sounds like you love that 1242 Chulasakarat dha, for a senior person then if thin light & razor sharp! {Not to mention a gold inlay.} No utility work for that one!

Have you any links or good pics of the one with crystalline structure to share?

It would be fascinating to see.

spiral

Andrew · 11th September 2014, 09:08 PM

Jonathan, the blade on that dated dha is really special. The fittings are pedestrian, and the scabbard that appeared with it in the Oldman catalog is long-gone, but doesn't look particularly fancy or highly decorated.

Perhaps a master swordsman? The body-guard of a wealthy individual? A professional dueler? Soldier? We are only limited by our imagination.

Parenthetically, I have not been able to find anything significant about that 1880 date in Burma. It was during the reign of Burma's last monarch, Thibaw, and five years prior to the third Anglo-Burmese war and Burma's annexation by Britain.

I have never been able to capture the "pattern" in the crystalline-structured dha, but haven't tried with a modern hi-res digital camera recently. I know you're familiar with the difficulty--tilting the blade 'just so' in certain lighting and the pattern becomes visible.

Best,
A

spiral · 12th September 2014, 12:53 PM

Interesting stuff Andrew, Great to have found it in Oldmans.

If you ever "catch" it in a photo it would be nice to see.

Spiral

spiral · 12th September 2014, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Spiral:

Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt.

Ian.

Fascinatingly The "Burma dah" from the initial catalogue I posted interestingly looks very like the "Burma cleaver" posted by Andrew from the Oldman catalogue.

As Dha,Dah etc. means knife Id guess, It was a correct after all?

spiral

Gavin Nugent · 12th September 2014, 03:54 PM

Andrew, I can not bring to light any detail about your dated sword but there are others with the same blade types and markings known, also in basic dress....a reader here has shared one with me and other members...perhaps it will find its way to these pages when a new home has been found for it...

Gavin Nugent · 12th September 2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinatingly The "Burma dah" from the initial catalogue I posted interestingly looks very like the "Burma cleaver" posted by Andrew from the Oldman catalogue.

As Dha,Dah etc. means knife Id guess, It was a correct after all?

spiral

Indeed Spiral, it is a known type throughout the region...I had a nice old one a while back and have seen many others in all styles and levels of quality...I think I listed mine as Thai but for all good intents and purposes it fits Burma too with its simple iron fittings...I have an even smaller example of kitchen size in silver and timber hilt dress, one that I traded back and Nathaniel was good enough to translate for me as it has text on the blade...dated 1910...

spiral · 13th September 2014, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Indeed Spiral, it is a known type throughout the region...I had a nice old one a while back and have seen many others in all styles and levels of quality...

Ahh that's great then Gav. it seems the Hunt & Brades designs are not so far fetched as Ian first thought perhaps then. {I am sure other Brit. companies & possible German ones, would also compete in the market.}

Id guess as in that era as England ruled half of of Africa, the Caribbean & Asia as well & exports as well as imports were key {as always..} many were probably sold, particularly to the major oil,teak,rubber,opium,sugar,corn,coffee, ruby, gold silver diamond & safari type companies Id guess.

{ETC.etc.]

Id also surmise the published prices were for anyone that daft to pay them..... If you wanted a few hundred , every couple of yearsI bet you could get them for peanuts... {Particularly if you went to the same school or belonged to the same club.}

They would cost more than the local produce for sure, but of a consistent style & steel. {And good for business.

}

Spiral

Ian · 13th September 2014, 08:23 PM

Spiral:

I think we need to look at the Oldman's catalog with a critical eye as to the attributions of the items shown as Burmese. While it is possible that these may have been found and brought back to England from Rangoon or Mandalay, a number of them are not typical of Burmese work (and by Burmese I mean produced in Burma for the indigenous population). While it was common practice that conquering armies would bring back craftsmen from their conquered territories to continue their fine crafts in a new home, it takes some time for the new arts and crafts to be assimilated into a new culture. For example, when the Thai conquered Laos and brought back Lao craftsmen, it took some time to assimilate the longer hilted Lao daab into an accepted Thai form. So there has been a long history of diffusion of styles over time. That said, there appear to be some inaccuracies in the Oldman catalog.

Looking at the image below, and starting from the top, number 10 has an unusually long hilt for a Burmese dha and is more likely Thai. Numbers 2 and 3 are Shan/Thai work and either from the Shan States (partly in Burma) or southern Yunnan. Number 5 could also be Thai. Number 4 we can probably say with some confidence is not Burmese, but more likely northern Thai/Lao in origin and perhaps coming from one of the hill tribes (Montagnard) of that region given the unusual shape of the tip.

Which brings us to number 12, the one that resembles the item labeled Burmese dha in the Hunt & Sons catalog. As Gavin rightly points out, this resembles a common tool used in Thailand. I don't know if it is used in Burma these days, but I did not see it there 25 years ago. It is not used as a knife but is more like a short handled axe, primarily for chopping bamboo and even not-so-small trees. Some of the modern versions come with a hollow handle to mount the blade on a pole. One name for this tool is e-toh and there is a version made by the Aranyik company. These show up regularly on eBay. I don't believe that the locals would classify this tool as a dha, and I have never heard it referred to as a "knife."

My last word on the William Hyde and Sons products in SE Asia. In my 50+ years of traveling in various parts of mainland SE Asia, Indonesia and the Philippines, I have not come across any of these items. I have seen other brands of European-made machetes and tools, just none from this particular company. That's not to say they weren't there at some time.

Ian.

11th September 2014, 09:08 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jonathan, the blade on that dated dha is really special. The fittings are pedestrian, and the scabbard that appeared with it in the Oldman catalog is long-gone, but doesn't look particularly fancy or highly decorated. Perhaps a master swordsman? The body-guard of a wealthy individual? A professional dueler? Soldier? We are only limited by our imagination. Parenthetically, I have not been able to find anything significant about that 1880 date in Burma. It was during the reign of Burma's last monarch, Thibaw, and five years prior to the third Anglo-Burmese war and Burma's annexation by Britain. I have never been able to capture the "pattern" in the crystalline-structured dha, but haven't tried with a modern hi-res digital camera recently. I know you're familiar with the difficulty--tilting the blade 'just so' in certain lighting and the pattern becomes visible. Best, A Attached Images

12th September 2014, 12:53 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting stuff Andrew, Great to have found it in Oldmans. If you ever "catch" it in a photo it would be nice to see. Spiral

12th September 2014, 03:54 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Andrew, I can not bring to light any detail about your dated sword but there are others with the same blade types and markings known, also in basic dress....a reader here has shared one with me and other members...perhaps it will find its way to these pages when a new home has been found for it...

13th September 2014, 08:23 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,522	Spiral: I think we need to look at the Oldman's catalog with a critical eye as to the attributions of the items shown as Burmese. While it is possible that these may have been found and brought back to England from Rangoon or Mandalay, a number of them are not typical of Burmese work (and by Burmese I mean produced in Burma for the indigenous population). While it was common practice that conquering armies would bring back craftsmen from their conquered territories to continue their fine crafts in a new home, it takes some time for the new arts and crafts to be assimilated into a new culture. For example, when the Thai conquered Laos and brought back Lao craftsmen, it took some time to assimilate the longer hilted Lao daab into an accepted Thai form. So there has been a long history of diffusion of styles over time. That said, there appear to be some inaccuracies in the Oldman catalog. Looking at the image below, and starting from the top, number 10 has an unusually long hilt for a Burmese dha and is more likely Thai. Numbers 2 and 3 are Shan/Thai work and either from the Shan States (partly in Burma) or southern Yunnan. Number 5 could also be Thai. Number 4 we can probably say with some confidence is not Burmese, but more likely northern Thai/Lao in origin and perhaps coming from one of the hill tribes (Montagnard) of that region given the unusual shape of the tip. Which brings us to number 12, the one that resembles the item labeled Burmese dha in the Hunt & Sons catalog. As Gavin rightly points out, this resembles a common tool used in Thailand. I don't know if it is used in Burma these days, but I did not see it there 25 years ago. It is not used as a knife but is more like a short handled axe, primarily for chopping bamboo and even not-so-small trees. Some of the modern versions come with a hollow handle to mount the blade on a pole. One name for this tool is e-toh and there is a version made by the Aranyik company. These show up regularly on eBay. I don't believe that the locals would classify this tool as a dha, and I have never heard it referred to as a "knife." My last word on the William Hyde and Sons products in SE Asia. In my 50+ years of traveling in various parts of mainland SE Asia, Indonesia and the Philippines, I have not come across any of these items. I have seen other brands of European-made machetes and tools, just none from this particular company. That's not to say they weren't there at some time. Ian.