Extremely Rare 14th to 18th Century Igniting Irons and a 16th Century Linstock

Andi · 3rd September 2014, 06:42 PM

Here is a igniting iron on display at Reichsstadtmuseum Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Bavaria, Germany. It is shown in connection with a miniature cannon ca, 31 mm, barrel lenght 525 mm of 1676. Due to the more than rustical handle of a deers antler I would date the igniting iron some times younger.

Matchlock · 12th September 2014, 05:46 PM

Hi Andi,

Thanks for adding that really precious item!

Assigning a date closer than, give or take, some 200 years, to objects of everyday use, and as simple as this - because perfectly shaped, unsurpassable, and therefore traditionally made the same, from at least the early 15th through the early 19th centuries! - , is impossible.
Maybe we will live to see science develop working! methods for dating wrought iron - no way so far.

Dobutlessly, though extremely rare to detect today (at least as to the author's experience), are igniting irons retaining their original priming prick (German: Zündstachel) - the author invented that term, taking the photos attached at the museum of Mariazell-Gusswerk, Styria, Austria, some 30 years ago.
It was in that very moment that the following thesis jumped to the author's mind:
All these igniting irons must, of, course, have been made with a delicate prick, both originally, and right from the very beginning - which was obviously the late 1200's, ca. 1280, - at least ! ...

As I have tried to demonstrate, the earliest datable actual igniting iron, and recorded to have survived, is preserved in
The Michael Trömner Collection.
Please see posts #1, and 12, in this thread, and re-attached below.

(Andi, I'm sure both you and Chris remember viewing, and enjoying, among all the rest, that particular item when you were down here in Abensberg, Lower Bavaria with me just a few months ago!

(well, actually Bavaria can't get any lower thanhere, where I grew up ...

))
Please give my greetings to Chris,
and do see come back and me as often as you can, the two of you!

The author puts forward as a thesis that, by circa 1400, igniting irons got wrought reinforced, elongated, and oval pear-shaped - for the simple reason that the former too thin and delicate, pricked ending proved not to be able to withstand, let alone hold, the read heat (circa 1,000-1,200° Celsius) long enough to really work out in war, and actually ignite several barrels, as rapidly as possible, when it all came down - to fragments of seconds.

As shown before, the touch holes of the earliest barrels were quite small, so they perfectly fitted the ends of the firing tools to enter:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rliest+barrels
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne

Those delicate wormlike endings got heated and, re-heated, over and over again; of course, they were left to rust in between - and probably came off quite soon.

So all that we can see non the surviving samples is the pear-shaped section, able to withstand both the heat and the rust; the original forward prick is gone long since.

Best,
Michael Trömner
Rebenstr. 9
93326 Abensberg
Lower Bavaria, Germany

Attachments, appearing in order:

- Konrad Kyeser, Eichstätt, Bavaria, dated 1405
- (Detail)

- Manuscript Besançon BM MS.1360, 1401-1450, fol. 121r; holding institution: Bibliothèque municipale de Besançon

- The earliest known surviving igniting iron, 14th c., preserved in

The Michael Trömner Collection
Abensberg, Bavaria, Germany

Marcus den toom · 15th September 2014, 08:11 PM

Just started reading this thread (again) and remembered this one. It was for sale at thomas del mar but was later withdrawn for unknown reasons (at least unknown to me).
Luckily i learned (somewhere

) to save items of interest, which was not a bad thing seeing as all the information was gone just a few days after the catalogue was put online.

It is missing the original haft but seems in otherwise good condition apart from it beeing a bit shiny for a "17th century" item as stated by the auctioneer.

12th September 2014, 05:46 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Andi, Thanks for adding that really precious item! Assigning a date closer than, give or take, some 200 years, to objects of everyday use, and as simple as this - because perfectly shaped, unsurpassable, and therefore traditionally made the same, from at least the early 15th through the early 19th centuries! - , is impossible. Maybe we will live to see science develop working! methods for dating wrought iron - no way so far. Dobutlessly, though extremely rare to detect today (at least as to the author's experience), are igniting irons retaining their original priming prick (German: *Zündstachel) - the author invented that term, taking the photos attached at the museum of Mariazell-Gusswerk,* Styria, Austria, some 30 years ago. It was in that very moment that the following thesis jumped to the author's mind: All these igniting irons must, of, course, have been made with a delicate prick, both originally, and right from the very beginning - which was obviously the late 1200's, ca. 1280, - at least ! ... As I have tried to demonstrate, the earliest datable actual igniting iron, and recorded to have survived, is preserved in The Michael Trömner Collection. Please see posts #1, and 12, in this thread, and re-attached below. (Andi, I'm sure both you and Chris remember viewing, and enjoying, among all the rest, that particular item when you were down here in Abensberg, Lower Bavaria with me just a few months ago!(well, actually Bavaria can't get any lower thanhere, where I grew up ... )) Please give my greetings to Chris, and do see come back and me as often as you can, the two of you! The author puts forward as a thesis that, by circa 1400, igniting irons got wrought reinforced, elongated, and oval pear-shaped - for the simple reason that the former too thin and delicate, pricked ending proved not to be able to withstand, let alone hold, the read heat (circa 1,000-1,200° Celsius) long enough to really work out in war, and actually ignite several barrels, as rapidly as possible, when it all came down - to fragments of seconds. As shown before, the touch holes of the earliest barrels were quite small, so they perfectly fitted the ends of the firing tools to enter: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rliest+barrels http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne Those delicate wormlike endings got heated and, re-heated, over and over again; of course, they were left to rust in between - and probably came off quite soon. So all that we can see non the surviving samples is the pear-shaped section, able to withstand both the heat and the rust; the original forward prick is gone long since. Best, Michael Trömner Rebenstr. 9 93326 Abensberg Lower Bavaria, Germany Attachments, appearing in order: - Konrad Kyeser, Eichstätt, Bavaria, dated 1405 - (Detail) - Manuscript Besançon BM MS.1360, 1401-1450, fol. 121r; holding institution: Bibliothèque municipale de Besançon - The earliest known surviving igniting iron, 14th c., preserved in The Michael Trömner Collection Abensberg, Bavaria, Germany Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 12th September 2014 at 11:44 PM.

3rd September 2014, 06:42 PM	#1
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Here is a igniting iron on display at Reichsstadtmuseum Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Bavaria, Germany. It is shown in connection with a miniature cannon ca, 31 mm, barrel lenght 525 mm of 1676. Due to the more than rustical handle of a deers antler I would date the igniting iron some times younger. Attached Images

15th September 2014, 08:11 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Just started reading this thread (again) and remembered this one. It was for sale at thomas del mar but was later withdrawn for unknown reasons (at least unknown to me). Luckily i learned (somewhere ) to save items of interest, which was not a bad thing seeing as all the information was gone just a few days after the catalogue was put online. It is missing the original haft but seems in otherwise good condition apart from it beeing a bit shiny for a "17th century" item as stated by the auctioneer.