Quality of edged weapons (101)?

[VANDOO]

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

[spiral]

in some way unused modern arms are more difficult to judge.

In Nepal 9 or 10 years ago old army kukri were sold for 4 times the price of a modern shiny lookalike piece, not for collector value just if it had lasted 80 or 100 years in a village you knew it was good! the locals would trust in it, The said new ones can look amazing then break , obviously due to poor steel tempering near the tang, poor steel, stress risers on poorly ground tangs etc.

If a knife or sword is to be used for real it should be tested, new or old.

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

If its ok, not bent broken or grip become loose then its probably ok to use if your life depends on it.

There are further old ww2 Gurkha tests to fine tune stuff for higher finesse, but the basic smash it & see from all angles lets you know whether it a user or not.

spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

The blade should be smacked at maximum impact into a thick oak {or equivalent.} plank {not the log end.} 3 or 4 times from edge, both sides & spine. {Safety gear may be needed. }

spiral

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

A word of caution: please do not do it with even presumably valuable blades:-)

I agree in principal Ariel, & the poster was talking about new pieces... but I still say if you are going to use one old or new, it needs testing!

Ive known 3 blokes carry collectable & sought after kukri as side arms in at least 3 nationality's forces in the last 15 years.

They all collected kukri, had lots of them {old & new.} & took the one they trusted most into combat zones. {2 were special ops types {some US Navy Intelligence unit, Brit.SAS, & a French fighter pilot.} because they were better than the modern made ones. There life, there collections, there choice.

It is a shame if a collectable gets destroyed, I agree, but If I really needed to use one as if my life depended on it {Not that Ill get a call up.}, it would be a good one as well.

If your life may depend on it , you've got to choose the best I think...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I was a kid I used to use an old khuk --- probably 19th century --- to hunt feral pigs --- we'd run the pigs down with dogs through the lignum and then finish them with knives or spears.

I never really found the khuk to be a lot of use as pig knife, mainly because you need to swing it, rather than thrust.

I finally stopped using it and went back to the Lee Enfield bayonet that I had previously used.

However, I did continue to use the khuk as a general purpose bush knife, and it was pretty good for this.

A few years ago the blade came unstuck from the hilt, and I was very surprised to find that the tang was only a short stub tang held with natural resin. This seemingly ineffective tang had stood up to a lot of pretty heavy work, and when I got the knife the grip was already well worn, indicating that it had had a lifetime of work before I got it.

That's the problem no one considers when pressing old blades into service, especially ones where the exact construction details are presumed to be a certain way.

No one would think about getting an X-ray first.

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

I've always thought it best to get the best modern equipment available and put faith in it when it's going into a situation where it could be ruined or, worse yet, taken and enjoyed by an "enemy combatant"!

Think about the movie, Pulp Fiction, where an Air Force captain played by Christopher Walken returns a watch with three generations of combat service to the young son of his POW cellmate!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, valid comments, but the khuk I'm talking about was a tool. meant to be used.

I used it.

The blade came loose.

So what?

I fixed it, and I'm still using that khuk as a camp knife/garden knife.

However, I would not recommend that a jade hilted Mughal court khanjar be used as a modern personal protection device.

Incidentally, my tool kit, that I use every time I have something to repair or make, has my father's tools from the 1920's, and my father's uncle's tools from the 1880's in it. To my mind it is no different using an old khuk to do a job, than it is to use old carpenter's and cabinet maker's tools --- or any other tools or household implements that are still functional, no matter how old they might happen to be.

Simple fact of the matter is that a lot of old stuff just works better, is more reliable, and less subject to breakage than the crap that is currently marketed. Plus you get the pleasure from using something nice. I can assure you that porridge eaten with a hallmarked English silver spoon made in 1825 tastes better than porridge eaten with a piece of Chinese stainless steel.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

...

The saddest tale of woe I have ever heard is that a descendant of Jim Bowie took one of the earliest Bowie knives, possibly the first one ever, on a hunting trip.

Long story short, the pirogue tipped over and dumped them and the contents into the water. The knife was lost! Family history, arms history, American history, and a knife that eventually would have great intrinsic value was irretrievably lost.

...

in 1973, travelling north in the inland passage from seattle to juneau on the USCG Cutter 'Confidence' we encountered a violent snowstorm/gale and i somehow lost my zippo lighter overboard. probably trying to light a cigarette. i smoked like a dirty chimney back then.

two years ago i got an email asking if i was the same wayne kroncke who served on the USCG cutter 'Confidence', i answered yes, of course.she then replied that her sister, walking along the beach in vancouver, canada had found a zippo lighter with my name on it a few years before, and she thought they, now computer literate, should try tracing it on the interweb. she mailed it to me and i have my 'irretrievable' lighter once more. i also stopped smoking almost 20 years ago, but the zippo still works after all that.

shows very little wear for it's years underwater and sand. lost the white, black, blue and red coloured paint in the original engraving and a bit of wear on the hand engraved side.

shows not only the endurance of a zippo, but the power of the internet. and the honesty of a few people in canada. i sent them a thankyou card with a few pounds to cover their expenses and buy them a beer.

we also frequently get iron age and earlier swords, etc. out of the thames river, in fairly remarkable condition.

maybe the bowie will turn up again. stranger things DO happen.

[driftwould]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A DEEP AND COMPLICATED QUESTION AND ONE THAT WILL VARY WITH EACH INDIVIDUAL COLLECTOR, I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS SO FAR. EXPERIENCE AND PERSONNEL TASTES WILL DETERMINE THE WAY WE COLLECT, SO EACH COLLECTOR WILL SET HIS OWN PARAMETERS FOR COLLECTING.
IF FOR RESALE NOW OR LATER THE PROFIT IS MOST IMPORTANT SO WORKMANSHIP, MATERIALS, AUTHENTICITY AND DEMAND MUST BE OF PRIMARY IMPORTANCE.
SOME OF US COLLECT ITEMS THAT ARE ATTRACTIVE OR ESPECIALLY INTERESTING TO US PERSONALLY REGARDLESS OF RESALE , PROFIT OR WORKMANSHIP BUT TO LEARN ABOUT AND HAVE. RESALE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN BY US AS WHEN WE PASS THEM ON IT IS BEST TO BREAK EVEN OR GET SOME PROFIT. THE COST, AUTHENTICITY AND ATTRACTIVENESS TO US PERSONALLY ARE OUR MAIN MOTIVATION.
SOME CHOOSE TO SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD AND ARE ABLE TO AVOID BUYING IN OTHER FIELDS. THEY MAY CHOOSE TO ONLY COLLECT A FEW OF THE VERY BEST QUALITY OR A RANGE OF QUALITY FROM LOW GRADE COMMON EXAMPLES TO THOSE ONLY FOR ROYALTY.

OFTEN THE MORE TECHNICALLY ADVANCED SOCIETY'S PRODUCE WHAT WE CONSIDER HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS. THEIR STEEL, GOLD, SILVER, GEMS AND INLAYS ARE TECHNICALLY SUPERIOR. BUT IN SOME SOCIETY'S THE MORE CRUDE TECHNIQUES ARE THE TRUE ONES AND WHAT WE SEEK SO THE PRIMITIVE CRAFT IS AUTHENTIC. SO COLLECTING IN THESE FIELDS REQUIRES WE LOOK FOR THE PROPER CRUDE TECHNIQUES, PATINA AND WEAR TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MODERN AND OLD. STONE TOOLS OR STEEL TOOLS OFTEN MAKES THE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY. THE PROPER MATERIALS AND DESIGNS USED ALSO PLAYS ITS PART.
WHEN DEALING WITH ITEMS MADE ONE AT A TIME BY HAND BY DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS AND TRIBES THAT CHANGE OVER TIME YIELDS A FIELD WHERE NO TWO ITEMS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE. THE FACTORY MADE ITEMS ON THE OTHER HAND ARE ALL MOSTLY ALIKE.
COLLECTING GOOD CONTEMPORARY MADE ITEMS MADE BY THE SOCIETY TODAY IS ANOTHER FIELD TO COLLECT IN AND HELPS SUPPORT AND PRESERVE THE NATIVE ART EVEN IF THEY ARE OFTEN CONSIDERED AS ONLY TOURIST ITEMS TODAY 100 YEARS FROM NOW WHO KNOWS?.
WE COLLECTORS ARE LIKE THE THINGS WE COLLECT, ARE ALL ONE OF A KIND AND EACH OF US FOLLOWS OUR OWN PATH AND LEARNS WHAT WE CAN FROM THE FORUM AND ELSEWHERE IN OUR OWN WAY. THE MAIN THING IS TO ENJOY, LEARN AND HAVE FUN.

Thanks a lot for the great response, Vandoo! Please see my response to AGM above.

[spiral]

This axe was the standard felling pattern in the UK Alan, nothing customised or special about it, It does what I ask of it though, better than modern axes sold for splitting.

In the UK we don't come across many axes that weight 7lb but are only a quarter inch thick 2 inches back from the edge. Here general purpose axes are thicker than that, {still concave of course.}Strangely in England being a 7lb Elwell it value is similar to your old bayonet! There sought after here! By both collectors & users!

I must admit the old American axes you mention & the custom Ozzie ones Ive never seen in the UK. Ill keep my eyes open for them! I guess Id have to search them out though... & any felling I do nowadays I only do with a chainsaw, so that's probably not much use to me, they look nice though & the custom handle looks usefull.

So when re.handled, Ill carry on using my 118 year old 7lb English pattern generic felling axe, {for splitting!}

Yes it does get tricky Driftwood, I have a couple of 200 year old plus rather exotic kukri that I haven't tested, but there of the reach out & touch someone with the sharpness rather than chopping weapons. But I don't intend to use them, I have others I can use.

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I couldn't agree more Spiral:- if your old Elwell does what you want it to do, and does it well, of course you should continue to use it.

This has been exactly what we've been talking about. In fact, I'd guess that the old Elwell probably splits blocks of firewood better than a modern so-called "block-splitter". I've used these things and in my book they're bloody atrocious. I'd sooner use a hammer and wedge than a modern block splitter.

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.


I believe without question that this design was very popular as a felling axe design in England, but design is one thing, grind is another. The factory produces the design, the user does the grind.

The same thing applies with the three axes I posted a pic of:- the Plumb came from the factory with GP grind, but the owner prior to my uncle re-ground it for ease of use on green eucalypt timber. The Keesteel came from the factory with a GP grind, and it has never been reground, if it were to be reground it would come up as a very fine axe.The Kelly came from the factory with a GP design and GP grind, this axe can never be anything else but a GP axe.

Those custom makers of axes, that I put the links in for, produce exceptionally fine axes, and they offer a number of grinds straight from the factory that will suit the timber that the axe is to be used on, this saves the buyer a lot of time.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that your old Elwell is as it came from the factory, and that any use it has had during its life was as a GP axe. If it had been used as a felling axe any self-respecting professional using it for this would have ground and sharpened it for this purpose. This axe has never been ground and sharpened as a felling axe for use on softwoods, so anybody trying to use it day in and day out for that job would have had a very hard row to hoe.
.

Yes it seemed virtually unused when I found it a couple of decades ago.

Ive never ground it.

So your deduction is probably correct!

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Driftwould, it appears that you understood the message I was attempting to convey, this being so I'd guess that you have probably more than a little bit study in front of you. This knowledge game tends to become easier if one can narrow focus.

In respect of fit and finish.

Perhaps the best way to understand these two things, as they apply to weaponry, is to look at a lot of examples of modern custom knifemakers work.

The best of these blokes are absolute fanatics on fit and finish.

I would not expect to see the same standard, or even anything close, when it comes to ethnic weaponry, but having seen the best that can be done you then have a yardstick to use against whatever else you might be looking at.

I feel that the two related concepts of fit and finish apply to probably most handmade objects, but within any field the interpretation will be different, for example fit and finish certainly apply to a bespoke suit, but the expert on tailoring excellence is not really equipped to judge a bespoke English longbow, and of course the opposite also applies.

So this gets back to comments that others have made, and that boil down to really only one thing:- experience. I don't know of any short cuts, but if you spend your available learning time by directing it towards the areas of greatest return you might be able to reduce the total time spent.

Fit and finish on sharp pointy things? Visit some custom knife shows.

[driftwould]

Well, since we're deep into this, here are some pictures of my latest acquisitions from Uzbekistan. Any thoughts on the quality, and how close or far from my goal I am? Unfortunately, some of them only had some pretty horrible sheathes (plastic?!) available, but what else could I do?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot give any opinion on this, because I do not know what is considered to be acceptable quality where these were made, however, if we compare this work to modern custom knife work --- which would be a patently ridiculous thing to do --- the fit and finish is very, very ordinary.

Look at the very best first, then get experience in the specific field.