St. Peter's Dagger

GIO · 28th August 2014, 04:49 PM

Sorry, only part of the text has been attached.
Trying to fix the problem

GIO · 28th August 2014, 04:57 PM

Trying again

Ian · 28th August 2014, 08:27 PM

GIO:

Thanks very much for the translation. It is disappointing and not very helpful information, as you correctly noted.

I think the final section of your translation was perhaps the most informative:

"Molinier: The knife came shortly before 1620 into St. Mark’s Treasure. It was thought to be the knife with which St. Peter cut Malco’s ear. On Oct. 11, 1608 it was in possession of a priest (Giovanni Battista Cominello) and on Jan. 3, 1609 was deposited with the Cappuccini Fathers. It can be identified as the knife which Alessandro Foscari of St. Simeon left in his will to his cousin Filippo, on condition—should he die without sons—to leave it to the St. Peter’s church (and this happened on April 8, 1559).

Since 1697 the knife has been considered as that used by Christ at the Last Supper, but in 1845 it was not regarded as such any more and transferred from the relics to the St. Mark’s Treasure."

So the St. Peter to whom this knife was attributed was Peter the Apostle, which answers one of the questions that was raised earlier. And the earliest provenance recorded for this knife appears to be 1559 when it was bequeathed to St. Peter's church.

Ian.

Kubur · 28th August 2014, 09:14 PM

I would like just to add that most of the Islamic objects in the Basilica San Marco are from the Fatimids in Egypt... 12th...
A lot of these oriental objects came from Alexandria through trade
or from Constantinopolis/Istanbul after the sack of the town by the Venetians.
It is may be some others tracks...

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2014, 01:32 AM

When I began this thread I did so with no more intent than to share an image of a rather nicely made, old, Eastern dagger, I had no idea that this image would generate such an involved discussion.

I extend my thanks to GIO for his translation of the Italian document, and in spite of both his comments, and Ian's comments, I find this document to be loaded with information.

Certainly, information such as specific point of origin in respect of time or place is not provided, but there is more than sufficient information to permit a person with sufficient interest to pursue the lines of investigation indicated as being required.

Admitted, such investigation may not be able to conducted online, nor even in a well equipped library, but could require some years of committed field work, however, the leads have been provided, all that is now required is dedication.

This dagger is not currently regarded as being attributed to St. Peter the Apostle. The name only is "St. Peter's Dagger", and it is attributed to the 14th century. I said this in the text of my post that opened this thread, and I think that my present statement is the fourth time I have said this. The Italian document now translated, tells us exactly why it is named thus.

In respect of the correct name for this type of this dagger, I don't know how naming conventions apply in this particular area of weaponry, but in the area with which I am most familiar, the name of a weapon, or for that matter many other objects, can vary enormously, dependent upon the time and the place:- what something is known as now in one place may not be the same as it was known as in the place and at the time when it was created. In many cases collectors have constructed their own lexicon which may bear very little relevance to the names used in the originating culture at any time or place.

The field of weaponry and art represented by this dagger is not of any great interest to me, and I have never carried out any research in this field, however, compared with the information and sources available in my own area of interest, it appears to me that the information available in respect of this one dagger is not only considerable, but also comparatively easily accessed.

I thank you most sincerely Giovanni for your very enlightening contribution.

Oliver Pinchot · 29th August 2014, 06:48 PM

Alan, thanks are due to you for contacting Giovanni, as well as to Giovanni for doing the translations. To all of the forum members who participated in the discussion: this kind of cooperation genuinely promotes knowledge. Happy to be a part of it.

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2014, 07:03 PM

I think Alan has perfectly responded to this discourse, which has been really fascinating and informative despite the red herring route initially. This was due to the misleading moniker with which the dagger is labeled. Naturally displayed with that title in that museum's context, without further detail, it would be assumed this was St.Peter 'the Apostle's' dagger.
Alan tried to qualify that in the beginning, but the thread moved ahead without that detail.
He again tried to specify that in his post #9, and finally subsequent posts recognized that there were indeed other Saints named Peter in the period Alan had specified originally .

The outstanding posts which have been entered here have been most informative, and I agree with Alan, the information added by the much appreciated translation work by Gio is actually quite helpful.

Actually the weapon described as that which was used by St. Peter (the Apostle) to cut off Malcho's ear was according to other research, a falchion type weapon which is known as the 'Malchus sword', and is presently held in a museum in Poland. I think this was mentioned in an earlier post.

Therefore, the analysis and determination of the probable ethnic and regional attribution of this dagger has at last been properly placed in the correct period, and using Alan's well placed words, this has been a most enlightening discussion.

I thank you as well Gio for your outstanding assistance with this.

28th August 2014, 08:27 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	GIO: Thanks very much for the translation. It is disappointing and not very helpful information, as you correctly noted. I think the final section of your translation was perhaps the most informative: "Molinier: The knife came shortly before 1620 into St. Mark’s Treasure. It was thought to be the knife with which St. Peter cut Malco’s ear. On Oct. 11, 1608 it was in possession of a priest (Giovanni Battista Cominello) and on Jan. 3, 1609 was deposited with the Cappuccini Fathers. It can be identified as the knife which Alessandro Foscari of St. Simeon left in his will to his cousin Filippo, on condition—should he die without sons—to leave it to the St. Peter’s church (and this happened on April 8, 1559). Since 1697 the knife has been considered as that used by Christ at the Last Supper, but in 1845 it was not regarded as such any more and transferred from the relics to the St. Mark’s Treasure." So the St. Peter to whom this knife was attributed was Peter the Apostle, which answers one of the questions that was raised earlier. And the earliest provenance recorded for this knife appears to be 1559 when it was bequeathed to St. Peter's church. Ian.

29th August 2014, 06:48 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	Alan, thanks are due to you for contacting Giovanni, as well as to Giovanni for doing the translations. To all of the forum members who participated in the discussion: this kind of cooperation genuinely promotes knowledge. Happy to be a part of it. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 30th August 2014 at 01:32 AM.

28th August 2014, 04:49 PM	#1
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	Sorry, only part of the text has been attached. Trying to fix the problem

28th August 2014, 09:14 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I would like just to add that most of the Islamic objects in the Basilica San Marco are from the Fatimids in Egypt... 12th... A lot of these oriental objects came from Alexandria through trade or from Constantinopolis/Istanbul after the sack of the town by the Venetians. It is may be some others tracks...

29th August 2014, 01:32 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	When I began this thread I did so with no more intent than to share an image of a rather nicely made, old, Eastern dagger, I had no idea that this image would generate such an involved discussion. I extend my thanks to GIO for his translation of the Italian document, and in spite of both his comments, and Ian's comments, I find this document to be loaded with information. Certainly, information such as specific point of origin in respect of time or place is not provided, but there is more than sufficient information to permit a person with sufficient interest to pursue the lines of investigation indicated as being required. Admitted, such investigation may not be able to conducted online, nor even in a well equipped library, but could require some years of committed field work, however, the leads have been provided, all that is now required is dedication. This dagger is not currently regarded as being attributed to St. Peter the Apostle. The name only is "St. Peter's Dagger", and it is attributed to the 14th century. I said this in the text of my post that opened this thread, and I think that my present statement is the fourth time I have said this. The Italian document now translated, tells us exactly why it is named thus. In respect of the correct name for this type of this dagger, I don't know how naming conventions apply in this particular area of weaponry, but in the area with which I am most familiar, the name of a weapon, or for that matter many other objects, can vary enormously, dependent upon the time and the place:- what something is known as now in one place may not be the same as it was known as in the place and at the time when it was created. In many cases collectors have constructed their own lexicon which may bear very little relevance to the names used in the originating culture at any time or place. The field of weaponry and art represented by this dagger is not of any great interest to me, and I have never carried out any research in this field, however, compared with the information and sources available in my own area of interest, it appears to me that the information available in respect of this one dagger is not only considerable, but also comparatively easily accessed. I thank you most sincerely Giovanni for your very enlightening contribution.

29th August 2014, 07:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	I think Alan has perfectly responded to this discourse, which has been really fascinating and informative despite the red herring route initially. This was due to the misleading moniker with which the dagger is labeled. Naturally displayed with that title in that museum's context, without further detail, it would be assumed this was St.Peter 'the Apostle's' dagger. Alan tried to qualify that in the beginning, but the thread moved ahead without that detail. He again tried to specify that in his post #9, and finally subsequent posts recognized that there were indeed other Saints named Peter in the period Alan had specified originally . The outstanding posts which have been entered here have been most informative, and I agree with Alan, the information added by the much appreciated translation work by Gio is actually quite helpful. Actually the weapon described as that which was used by St. Peter (the Apostle) to cut off Malcho's ear was according to other research, a falchion type weapon which is known as the 'Malchus sword', and is presently held in a museum in Poland. I think this was mentioned in an earlier post. Therefore, the analysis and determination of the probable ethnic and regional attribution of this dagger has at last been properly placed in the correct period, and using Alan's well placed words, this has been a most enlightening discussion. I thank you as well Gio for your outstanding assistance with this.