Why and What We Collect--A Tale of Two Barung

Gavin Nugent · 25th August 2014, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor.

I am curios, as you are a serious and experienced collector; Where does condition, completeness, faults and flaws sit with you in the wide scope of your collections? I can appreciate a Keris blade may be acquired without further dress but do you like to buy bikes with missing wheels or paperweights with breaks and flaws?

A. G. Maisey · 25th August 2014, 11:58 PM

As I have said, for me, it is subjective.

All the things I collect I have very long experience with. Because of this there are various factors that can effect my decision to buy.

When I was much less experienced with keris I used to focus on just the fact that it was a keris, this was when I was a kid of 12 or 14 years old, then later, in my twenties and thirties I was looking for the rare and unusual; after I gained knowledge of how quality is assessed in a keris I focussed on quality, and sought keris of the very best quality I could afford.

All these stages in my collecting of keris have added to the way I now look at a keris, so each appraisal of a keris becomes subjective, although that subjectivity is guided, often intuitively guided, by very long objective experience.

Will I buy a very badly damaged keris that may appear to be no more than junk?

Yes. Provided it has a feature that makes it worthy of study, or it is worth putting time into to restore. My core collection contains not only keris with six figure values, but also keris that even very experienced internationally known collectors have needed guidance before they were able to understand the value of the piece. In my opinion this type of in depth study is what is required to gain true knowledge.

Will I buy a paperweight with chips or flaws?

Yes.

For similar reasons that apply to my keris collecting:- to gain knowledge.

I do have some very good weights, but the knowledge that has permitted me to acquire those weights has come from the study of weights that are less perfect.

Bicycles?

I started to race when I was 16 and I finally gave it away for good when I was 42.

I still ride a bike. Mostly a mountain bike on bush tracks, but I have a total of 10 or 12 bikes 3 or 4 of which get used constantly --- mountain bike, fixie, road bike. I need to keep the number down to about ten because I don't have the space to keep any more, so I am always selling one or buying one.

Some of the nicest bikes I've owned have come from the local rubbish tip. I bought one a couple of weeks ago that I sold yesterday to my exercise physiologist.

This bike is a 1960's Peugeot, Nervex Professional lugs, all second string competition components from the 1960's, when I bought it I paid $10. It looked like pure crap, filthy, chain rusted solid, lousy paint job, wheels out of true. A real mess. It took me a couple of days and about $60 to turn it into a very classy fixie. It’s a 23" square frame, which is far too big for me, otherwise I would have kept it, instead of passing it on to somebody else.

Would I buy a bike with missing wheels?

Oh yes, most definitely. I'd buy a bike with missing or broken anything, provided it was good bike and I could fix it.

I enjoy the process of fixing.

As I said in my previous post:-

"Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor."

Battara · 26th August 2014, 12:12 AM

I hear you Alan, I hear you......

Sajen · 26th August 2014, 05:07 PM

Why I collect is difficult to say, I've collect already when I was a very young boy. I have collect nearly all what appealed my eyes or what I find interesting, stamps, coins, papermoney, paperweights (hi Alan

), old tins and many more. By my first trip to Java I have bought my first keris handle which is still in my collection. And I get contact in a hotel in Malang with a very knowledge person from which I learned the most I know today and from which I get my first two keris. Later my interest extended to other weapons from Indonesia. And again later I found the way to this forum and my interest extended also to the weapons from the Philippines.
Of course I like high end pieces but my limited financial situation don't allow me to buy every time this pieces for prices which are adequate for this pieces. So I also can enjoy lower end pieces. And I like to buy imperfect pieces and enjoy to bring them back to old glory.

A. G. Maisey · 26th August 2014, 11:04 PM

Yep, coins too for me.

In fact that was probably my first collection when I was only a little kid, maybe 4 years old, certainly before I went to school.

In later years I built a pretty decent collection of Indian hand struck coins, and a good collection of Indonesian currency from the time Indonesia became an independent nation.

Haven't added much in recent years, principally because of the cost and rarity of the hand strucks.

Would I buy a defective hand struck coin?

No, probably not, reason being that I don't know much about these, I'm not a dedicated collector of coins, and I'm not all that keen on learning much about them. They're just something I like.

fernando · 27th August 2014, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In later years I built a pretty decent collection of Indian hand struck coins ...

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, Alan ...
Are you referring to this type of coins ?
These are Karshapanas of the Maurya Dinasty (300 BC), allegedly found in the Elephanta Island.
... But i learnt they are not that rare

.

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2014, 10:29 PM

They may not be rare, but I haven't seen them.

However, yes, more or less like that, but mine are much later. I've got a few quite elderly coins, but these are not Indian.

I'll put up a pic or two as soon as I get a chance.

ariel · 27th August 2014, 11:06 PM

Going to the extreme, which one would you buy: old, beat up khanda with nick-ed edges and simple Old Indian hilt or a modern Rajastani replica with modern damascus blade and a hilt covered in golden decorations?

Both are genuine Indian, both reflect centuries-old tradition, but... the lavish example has no magic of history behind it. It has no tales to tell.

I go for the simple and old examples.
My wife once asked me whether I thought that some.. at least some... of my sword actually, you know.... KILLED people?
Well, - I said, - I hope so!

Otherwise, they would not be weapons. Wall hangers, no more. No amount of decoration, Kirk Narduban , exotic pamor, rare wood, shiny blade or perfect fit of the scabbard or a handle can substitute for the aura of history.

This is my personal view, and I defininitely don't want to impose my philosophy on anybody. Please, have your rich, decorated, pristine things. I shall be only glad to go for the old, often beat up and simple fighting examples. To each his own.

25th August 2014, 11:58 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	As I have said, for me, it is subjective. All the things I collect I have very long experience with. Because of this there are various factors that can effect my decision to buy. When I was much less experienced with keris I used to focus on just the fact that it was a keris, this was when I was a kid of 12 or 14 years old, then later, in my twenties and thirties I was looking for the rare and unusual; after I gained knowledge of how quality is assessed in a keris I focussed on quality, and sought keris of the very best quality I could afford. All these stages in my collecting of keris have added to the way I now look at a keris, so each appraisal of a keris becomes subjective, although that subjectivity is guided, often intuitively guided, by very long objective experience. Will I buy a very badly damaged keris that may appear to be no more than junk? Yes. Provided it has a feature that makes it worthy of study, or it is worth putting time into to restore. My core collection contains not only keris with six figure values, but also keris that even very experienced internationally known collectors have needed guidance before they were able to understand the value of the piece. In my opinion this type of in depth study is what is required to gain true knowledge. Will I buy a paperweight with chips or flaws? Yes. For similar reasons that apply to my keris collecting:- to gain knowledge. I do have some very good weights, but the knowledge that has permitted me to acquire those weights has come from the study of weights that are less perfect. Bicycles? I started to race when I was 16 and I finally gave it away for good when I was 42. I still ride a bike. Mostly a mountain bike on bush tracks, but I have a total of 10 or 12 bikes 3 or 4 of which get used constantly --- mountain bike, fixie, road bike. I need to keep the number down to about ten because I don't have the space to keep any more, so I am always selling one or buying one. Some of the nicest bikes I've owned have come from the local rubbish tip. I bought one a couple of weeks ago that I sold yesterday to my exercise physiologist. This bike is a 1960's Peugeot, Nervex Professional lugs, all second string competition components from the 1960's, when I bought it I paid $10. It looked like pure crap, filthy, chain rusted solid, lousy paint job, wheels out of true. A real mess. It took me a couple of days and about $60 to turn it into a very classy fixie. It’s a 23" square frame, which is far too big for me, otherwise I would have kept it, instead of passing it on to somebody else. Would I buy a bike with missing wheels? Oh yes, most definitely. I'd buy a bike with missing or broken anything, provided it was good bike and I could fix it. I enjoy the process of fixing. As I said in my previous post:- "Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor."

26th August 2014, 12:12 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I hear you Alan, I hear you......

26th August 2014, 05:07 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Why I collect is difficult to say, I've collect already when I was a very young boy. I have collect nearly all what appealed my eyes or what I find interesting, stamps, coins, papermoney, paperweights (hi Alan ), old tins and many more. By my first trip to Java I have bought my first keris handle which is still in my collection. And I get contact in a hotel in Malang with a very knowledge person from which I learned the most I know today and from which I get my first two keris. Later my interest extended to other weapons from Indonesia. And again later I found the way to this forum and my interest extended also to the weapons from the Philippines. Of course I like high end pieces but my limited financial situation don't allow me to buy every time this pieces for prices which are adequate for this pieces. So I also can enjoy lower end pieces. And I like to buy imperfect pieces and enjoy to bring them back to old glory.

26th August 2014, 11:04 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yep, coins too for me. In fact that was probably my first collection when I was only a little kid, maybe 4 years old, certainly before I went to school. In later years I built a pretty decent collection of Indian hand struck coins, and a good collection of Indonesian currency from the time Indonesia became an independent nation. Haven't added much in recent years, principally because of the cost and rarity of the hand strucks. Would I buy a defective hand struck coin? No, probably not, reason being that I don't know much about these, I'm not a dedicated collector of coins, and I'm not all that keen on learning much about them. They're just something I like.

27th August 2014, 10:29 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	They may not be rare, but I haven't seen them. However, yes, more or less like that, but mine are much later. I've got a few quite elderly coins, but these are not Indian. I'll put up a pic or two as soon as I get a chance.

27th August 2014, 11:06 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Going to the extreme, which one would you buy: old, beat up khanda with nick-ed edges and simple Old Indian hilt or a modern Rajastani replica with modern damascus blade and a hilt covered in golden decorations? Both are genuine Indian, both reflect centuries-old tradition, but... the lavish example has no magic of history behind it. It has no tales to tell. I go for the simple and old examples. My wife once asked me whether I thought that some.. at least some... of my sword actually, you know.... KILLED people? Well, - I said, - I hope so! Otherwise, they would not be weapons. Wall hangers, no more. No amount of decoration, Kirk Narduban , exotic pamor, rare wood, shiny blade or perfect fit of the scabbard or a handle can substitute for the aura of history. This is my personal view, and I defininitely don't want to impose my philosophy on anybody. Please, have your rich, decorated, pristine things. I shall be only glad to go for the old, often beat up and simple fighting examples. To each his own.