Why and What We Collect--A Tale of Two Barung

VANDOO · 19th August 2014, 04:27 PM

I WOULD SAY ITEM #1 MAY OR MAY NOT BE OLDER BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS IN FORM AND SIZE. THE DIFFERENCES MAY BE MORE BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT REGIONS AND GROUPS THAN OF AGE. #1 IS THE MORE RARE FORM AS THE OTHER FORM IS ENCOUNTERED MORE OFTEN SO PERHAPS IS THE MORE DESIRABLE TO COLLECT. THE SCABBARD LOOKS TO BE A FORM FROM A DIFFERENT ISLAND THAN ITEM #2.
#2 IS OF A OLDER FORM OF ITS TYPE, ITS FORM AND CONSTRUCTION MAKES ME SUSPECT PRE-WW2 NOT POST. POST WW2 OFTEN HAS WIDER STRIPS OF FIBER WRAP ON THE SCABBARD AND ALUMINUM IS A MORE COMMON FERRULE AND BANDING MATERIAL. THE WORN BANDS ON THE GRIP ARE A OLDER CHARACTERISTIC TOO.
IN THE END WHO KNOWS WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. AS TO THE QUESTION WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE ? I AM SOMEWHAT FICKLE AND GO WITH WHAT ATTRACTS ME MOST ON MAKING SUCH A SELECTION, SO WITH BOTH ITEMS IN HAND IT COULD GO EITHER WAY.
JUST FROM PICTURES IF PRICES WERE COMPARABLE SAY ON EBAY I WOULD LIKELY GO WITH #1 AS I DON'T HAVE ONE LIKE IT.

Sajen · 19th August 2014, 05:43 PM

Very good topic!

I would have taken the barong A, a very good example of an older form and when I would have more money I certainly would have given a bid (special by the price it was gone).
BTW, I have had recently similar thoughts for a thread and will come back later to this matter.

Regards,
Detlef

spiral · 19th August 2014, 07:58 PM

From the pics. the second item would I guess be being sold being sold by an experienced professional arms dealer very used to years of trading on ebay......

For many possible reasons such sellers usually have more bidders... & any early bidders bids are quickly maxed out, meaning to win the item you have to pay more.

Its not just about the item, its about the salesmanship & strategy used to gain maximum return, I suspect.

spiral

Royston · 20th August 2014, 08:54 AM

I am that sad, pathetic creature known as a collector or even an addict. It would have to be BOTH.

Rick · 20th August 2014, 03:29 PM

Yes, living life saddled with the collecting gene can be a blessing and a curse .

If only I had stuck with just collecting edged weapons ...

Too late now .

edit:
I would've picked the older simpler barung .

Maurice · 20th August 2014, 04:37 PM

I would go for A.
That B went for more as 55% is because the buyer didn't do his homework to well before buying? (as we all did and still do once in a while).

David · 21st August 2014, 08:23 PM

I also would pick the older barung ("A"), but keep in mind that this wasn't an either/or choice for the buyers of these weapons. They were not given a choice of one weapon OR the other. These auctions took place separately, one at a time. The reasons "B" sold for more could be many. Sometimes a bidding war gets crazy. Sometimes we take a shine to something and decide that we want it even if the price runs too high. That "B" sold for 55% more does not say that given the chose, more of those bidders wouldn't have chosen "A" over "B".

Sajen · 21st August 2014, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

#2 IS OF A OLDER FORM OF ITS TYPE, ITS FORM AND CONSTRUCTION MAKES ME SUSPECT PRE-WW2 NOT POST. POST WW2 OFTEN HAS WIDER STRIPS OF FIBER WRAP ON THE SCABBARD AND ALUMINUM IS A MORE COMMON FERRULE AND BANDING MATERIAL. THE WORN BANDS ON THE GRIP ARE A OLDER CHARACTERISTIC TOO.

Agree, this barung don't look like a post WWII barung to my eyes.
Look for example this one from my collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=barong

Ian · 21st August 2014, 10:18 PM

As expected, the responses so far have been varied and somewhat in favor of the older, and perhaps more refined, example. However, I'm also hearing some compulsive/impulsive urges to collecting that I think probably infect all of us from time to time. Of course, those who visit this site and comment are probably the most hopelessly addicted cases anyway.

While I did not mean this thread to be about the technical aspects of the barung, but rather to use the two examples shown as a talking point about collecting, I will answer Barry's and Detlef's points about the age of Item 2. Robert Cato's book is a useful guide in this regard. He notes:

"Usually only the bottom third of antique tagub [scabbards] were wrapped with cane bindings. It appears that the Sulus altered this practice around the time of the Second World War, when they began to wrap their scabbards from top to bottom." (R. Cato, op. cit., p. 44)

If we look at the pictures of the tagub of Item 2, note the almost complete wrapping of the scabbard with fine strands of cane. (I think it is likely that this one was totally wrapped at one time and has lost some of the wrapping.) This would place it WWII or later. Also, the winding of fine cane around the scabbard in this manner seemed to become much more prevalent post-WWII, compared with plaited strands or somewhat wider cane strips on earlier pieces. However, the point noted by Cato seems to be the best indicator of period for the tagub.

Ian.

RSWORD · 22nd August 2014, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As expected, the responses so far have been varied and somewhat in favor of the older, and perhaps more refined, example. However, I'm also hearing some compulsive/impulsive urges to collecting that I think probably infect all of us from time to time. Of course, those who visit this site and comment are probably the most hopelessly addicted cases anyway.

While I did not mean this thread to be about the technical aspects of the barung, but rather to use the two examples shown as a talking point about collecting, I will answer Barry's and Detlef's points about the age of Item 2. Robert Cato's book is a useful guide in this regard. He notes:

"Usually only the bottom third of antique tagub [scabbards] were wrapped with cane bindings. It appears that the Sulus altered this practice around the time of the Second World War, when they began to wrap their scabbards from top to bottom." (R. Cato, op. cit., p. 44)

If we look at the pictures of the tagub of Item 2, note the almost complete wrapping of the scabbard with fine strands of cane. (I think it is likely that this one was totally wrapped at one time and has lost some of the wrapping.) This would place it WWII or later. Also, the winding of fine cane around the scabbard in this manner seemed to become much more prevalent post-WWII, compared with plaited strands or somewhat wider cane strips on earlier pieces. However, the point noted by Cato seems to be the best indicator of period for the tagub.

Ian.

Ian,

I wouldn't date the entire sword based solely on the scabbard. It could be a working life replacement. I believe, as Vandoo and Sajen do, that the barong itself is older than WW2.

Ian · 22nd August 2014, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Ian,

I wouldn't date the entire sword based solely on the scabbard. It could be a working life replacement. I believe, as Vandoo and Sajen do, that the barong itself is older than WW2.

Rick:

You are absolutely correct in noting that the barung, taken by itself, could possibly date from 1920-1930. This is the period to which Cato assigns the emergence of the kakatua style on Item 2. That style of kakatua is still being made. And yes, it is possible that the tagub could be a replacement. If so, it appears to be an old replacement.

That said, I prefer to deal with the data at hand. I have no reason to believe that the tagub has been replaced; the amount of wear on the scabbard seems commensurate with the hilt, and I think both are likely original to the blade. When a piece has seen some heavy action, as this one may well have, I don't think appearances alone are helpful in judging age. Rather, I prefer to look at the available evidence, as outlined in the original post of this thread.

Having made my case for what I think these two barung represent, I won't elaborate any further. Feel free to disagree. But please tell me also your collecting philosophy.

Ian.

Rick · 23rd August 2014, 12:53 AM

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

RSWORD · 23rd August 2014, 01:38 AM

Hi Ian,

Personally I would date the barong slightly earlier but hey we are only talking 10-20 years and in the case of the piece in question a rather insignificant difference. I am digressing from the original question and am happy to provide my own point of view on my collecting philosophy.

For me, it has been a journey that seems ever evolving. I was quite young when I first started and I simply thought they were cool. Didn't really know anything about those first pieces but they were cool. I have always been a collector and treasure hunter. It started with comics and baseball cards and excursions into my grandmothers attic. So I think some of that was carrying over into my young adult years. So after starting out with 4-5 pieces that I knew absolutely nothing about I ran across a book on the subject. Lo and behold one of my early swords was in the book. How cool was that! That sparked a desire to learn more so over the next decade or so I started going to shows, getting more books, meeting more collectors and my knowledge and more importantly my appreciation for these objects began to grow. Herein lies the trap. The more I learn the more I appreciate. The more I appreciate the more fun the treasure hunt. The occasional great buy feeds the treasure hunt to do it again. So again, I am in a damn perpetual cycle of hunting, acquiring and appreciating these objects. Through research on these items I have learned more about history and other cultures than I ever did in school. So that speaks a bit about how I got here. As far as a collecting philosophy I don't have one. I tend to gravitate towards certain regions or style of weapons so I have never been able to narrow the focus to one thing. If something catches my eye and I have the means at that time to get it then that is what I do. My philosophy is to fully learn and appreciate these ethnographic objects for their historical significance, their cultural significance, their artistic significance and finally their quality of craftsmanship. Doing that feeds that inner collector child except instead of Fantastic Four, Thor, Avengers and the Justice League it's Tibetan Ke Tri, Ottoman shamshir, Moro Kalis and Indian Tulwar. I am interested in seeing where this evolves for me in 20 years. I have a feeling the vicious cycle will continue!

Gavin Nugent · 23rd August 2014, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

I wouldn't have bought either item for these reasons...patience ;-)

Or at least, complete, without loss or major flaws and aspects that can be restored...

21st August 2014, 10:18 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	As expected, the responses so far have been varied and somewhat in favor of the older, and perhaps more refined, example. However, I'm also hearing some compulsive/impulsive urges to collecting that I think probably infect all of us from time to time. Of course, those who visit this site and comment are probably the most hopelessly addicted cases anyway. While I did not mean this thread to be about the technical aspects of the barung, but rather to use the two examples shown as a talking point about collecting, I will answer Barry's and Detlef's points about the age of Item 2. Robert Cato's book is a useful guide in this regard. He notes: "Usually only the bottom third of antique tagub [scabbards] were wrapped with cane bindings. It appears that the Sulus altered this practice around the time of the Second World War, when they began to wrap their scabbards from top to bottom." (R. Cato, op. cit., p. 44) If we look at the pictures of the tagub of Item 2, note the almost complete wrapping of the scabbard with fine strands of cane. (I think it is likely that this one was totally wrapped at one time and has lost some of the wrapping.) This would place it WWII or later. Also, the winding of fine cane around the scabbard in this manner seemed to become much more prevalent post-WWII, compared with plaited strands or somewhat wider cane strips on earlier pieces. However, the point noted by Cato seems to be the best indicator of period for the tagub. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 21st August 2014 at 11:01 PM.

19th August 2014, 04:27 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD SAY ITEM #1 MAY OR MAY NOT BE OLDER BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS IN FORM AND SIZE. THE DIFFERENCES MAY BE MORE BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT REGIONS AND GROUPS THAN OF AGE. #1 IS THE MORE RARE FORM AS THE OTHER FORM IS ENCOUNTERED MORE OFTEN SO PERHAPS IS THE MORE DESIRABLE TO COLLECT. THE SCABBARD LOOKS TO BE A FORM FROM A DIFFERENT ISLAND THAN ITEM #2. #2 IS OF A OLDER FORM OF ITS TYPE, ITS FORM AND CONSTRUCTION MAKES ME SUSPECT PRE-WW2 NOT POST. POST WW2 OFTEN HAS WIDER STRIPS OF FIBER WRAP ON THE SCABBARD AND ALUMINUM IS A MORE COMMON FERRULE AND BANDING MATERIAL. THE WORN BANDS ON THE GRIP ARE A OLDER CHARACTERISTIC TOO. IN THE END WHO KNOWS WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. AS TO THE QUESTION WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE ? I AM SOMEWHAT FICKLE AND GO WITH WHAT ATTRACTS ME MOST ON MAKING SUCH A SELECTION, SO WITH BOTH ITEMS IN HAND IT COULD GO EITHER WAY. JUST FROM PICTURES IF PRICES WERE COMPARABLE SAY ON EBAY I WOULD LIKELY GO WITH #1 AS I DON'T HAVE ONE LIKE IT.

19th August 2014, 05:43 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Very good topic! I would have taken the barong A, a very good example of an older form and when I would have more money I certainly would have given a bid (special by the price it was gone). BTW, I have had recently similar thoughts for a thread and will come back later to this matter. Regards, Detlef

19th August 2014, 07:58 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	From the pics. the second item would I guess be being sold being sold by an experienced professional arms dealer very used to years of trading on ebay...... For many possible reasons such sellers usually have more bidders... & any early bidders bids are quickly maxed out, meaning to win the item you have to pay more. Its not just about the item, its about the salesmanship & strategy used to gain maximum return, I suspect. spiral

20th August 2014, 08:54 AM	#4
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	I am that sad, pathetic creature known as a collector or even an addict. It would have to be BOTH.

20th August 2014, 03:29 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Yes, living life saddled with the collecting gene can be a blessing and a curse . If only I had stuck with just collecting edged weapons ... Too late now . edit: I would've picked the older simpler barung .

20th August 2014, 04:37 PM	#6
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	I would go for A. That B went for more as 55% is because the buyer didn't do his homework to well before buying? (as we all did and still do once in a while).

21st August 2014, 08:23 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	I also would pick the older barung ("A"), but keep in mind that this wasn't an either/or choice for the buyers of these weapons. They were not given a choice of one weapon OR the other. These auctions took place separately, one at a time. The reasons "B" sold for more could be many. Sometimes a bidding war gets crazy. Sometimes we take a shine to something and decide that we want it even if the price runs too high. That "B" sold for 55% more does not say that given the chose, more of those bidders wouldn't have chosen "A" over "B".

23rd August 2014, 12:53 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition . Sometimes it works out .

23rd August 2014, 01:38 AM	#13
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Ian, Personally I would date the barong slightly earlier but hey we are only talking 10-20 years and in the case of the piece in question a rather insignificant difference. I am digressing from the original question and am happy to provide my own point of view on my collecting philosophy. For me, it has been a journey that seems ever evolving. I was quite young when I first started and I simply thought they were cool. Didn't really know anything about those first pieces but they were cool. I have always been a collector and treasure hunter. It started with comics and baseball cards and excursions into my grandmothers attic. So I think some of that was carrying over into my young adult years. So after starting out with 4-5 pieces that I knew absolutely nothing about I ran across a book on the subject. Lo and behold one of my early swords was in the book. How cool was that! That sparked a desire to learn more so over the next decade or so I started going to shows, getting more books, meeting more collectors and my knowledge and more importantly my appreciation for these objects began to grow. Herein lies the trap. The more I learn the more I appreciate. The more I appreciate the more fun the treasure hunt. The occasional great buy feeds the treasure hunt to do it again. So again, I am in a damn perpetual cycle of hunting, acquiring and appreciating these objects. Through research on these items I have learned more about history and other cultures than I ever did in school. So that speaks a bit about how I got here. As far as a collecting philosophy I don't have one. I tend to gravitate towards certain regions or style of weapons so I have never been able to narrow the focus to one thing. If something catches my eye and I have the means at that time to get it then that is what I do. My philosophy is to fully learn and appreciate these ethnographic objects for their historical significance, their cultural significance, their artistic significance and finally their quality of craftsmanship. Doing that feeds that inner collector child except instead of Fantastic Four, Thor, Avengers and the Justice League it's Tibetan Ke Tri, Ottoman shamshir, Moro Kalis and Indian Tulwar. I am interested in seeing where this evolves for me in 20 years. I have a feeling the vicious cycle will continue!