New Jersey Ivory ban....

[David]

Barry, let's keep in mind the actual source of ivory. The killing of these majestic beasts solely for the artistic endeavors of a theoretical "greatest ivory carver of all time" so that the piece can then be sold to rich westerners for their art collections is hardly justifiable in my universe. So, if the greatest human skull carver is out there trying to do his work today should we legalize the taking of human heads for the sake of his art as well?
Stocks of pre-CITES ivory is another question that needs to need looked into, but it seems to me that the only way to stop the illegal trade is to stop ALL new carving of ivory material. Pre-CITES ivory is a limited and finite supply. Who decides who gets to carve it and what happens when that supply runs out and demand for carved ivory pieces continues? As long as the market for new ivory carvings continues people will find illegal ways to fill it. IMHO the master ivory carver needs to move on to a different material. Continuing to carve new ivory pieces (even if it is pre-CITES material) only continues to drive the market for the stuff and encourages the poachers
My only concern, and what should be the only real concern of antique collectors (weapons or otherwise) everywhere, is the question of antique and pre-CITES carvings and usage. I have no tears for the latest and greatest ivory art carver and his woes about the possible destruction of his latest masterpiece. There are many other materials to carve that don't take the lives of elephants or other ivory bearing animals.

[drac2k]

David, you have just come up with the solution that has been evading all of us; the carving of human sculls.This is not a new tradition, but an old one dating from before the Viking scull mead cups, to the Tibetan practice of bone carving.The Dyaks, Igorots , and others also adorned heads that they took.
There is no need to sanction the illegal taking of heads as there are plenty around the world that could be had cheaply ; one immediate source I can think of would be from Isis, who don't seem to be utilizing them other than for terror purposes! I know, maybe you think that would be encouraging the illegal taking of heads, so I propose that when people die, if they wish, they could sell their bones to whomever they wanted to, to carve as they wish, irregardless of their skills.
I personally have been told that I have a huge head(my wife affectionately calls me bucket head);I would gladly sell it(to be taken after my death),to a "master carver," to do as he wished.Based on the size and bone density and small brain cavity, I am sure it would fetch a high price.I would also donate 10% of the proceeds to a game reserve in penance for any ivory that I might have purchased in the past by accident !

[VANDOO]

I AM NOT FOR THE KILLING OF ANY RARE ANIMALS FOR TROPHY'S OR BODY PARTS ELEPHANTS OR RHINO INCLUDED.
REGULATION IS NEEDED FOR ITEMS ALREADY REMOVED FROM ANIMALS NO LONGER LIVING. LEGISLATION MADE BY PEOPLE WITH AN EMOTIONAL AGENDA AND OFTEN VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT IN FULL OFTEN LEADS TO POOR LAWS CONFISCATION AND DESTRUCTION WILLY NILLY. WITH NO LOGIC OR PLAN TO BENEFIT ANYONE INCLUDING THE ANIMAL TO BE SAVED, SUCH LAWS DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD. THE HYPOTHETICAL MASTER CARVER IS JUST A FOR INSTANCE AND THE THOUGHT COULD BE APPLIED TO ANY FORM OF ART IF IT WAS ELIMINATED THRU LAW.
TRUE WE COULD REPLACE ALL IVORY PARTS ON OLD WEAPONS WITH PLASTIC AND REQUIRE OWNERS TO REPLACE THEIR IVORY CARVINGS WITH PLASTIC ONES AND THEN BURN ALL IVORY IN SHAME FOR HAVING EVER KILLED AN ELEPHANT THRUOUT HISTORY.
I SUSPECT A MASTER CARVER WILL GO OUT OF BUSINESS QUICKLY CARVING PLASTIC WHEN IT CAN BE EASILY CAST SO THE SKILL CAN BE LOST WHICH IS NO BIG DEAL. AFTER ALL THE HUMAN RACE HAS MORE ARTS AND CRAFTS THAN WE NEED ALREADY. THERE ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH COUNTRY'S IN THE WORLD THAT WILL CONTINUE THEIR PRACTICES TO ELIMINATE THE SPECIES IN DEMAND IN TIME ESPECIALLY IF SOME OR THE RESOURCES THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO ACQUIRE THE FUNDS TO PROTECT THOSE SPECIES ARE WASTED.
I HAVE SAID ALL I CAN AND PERHAPS MORE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION WILL CHANGE ANYTHING ESPECIALLY THE CURRENT AGENDA I JUST WONDER IN DREAD WHO THEY PLAN TO GET NEXT. SAVE THE SHARK, SAVE THE TREE, SAVE THE FOSSIL, SAVE THE TRIBAL ARTIFACT, MINERAL OR WHAT HAVE YOU, NO FUR, FEATHERS, BONE, TEETH, LEATHER, WOOD ,OIL OR COAL, ECT. AFTER ALL THERE ARE NOW SEVERAL TV PROGRAMS FEATURING NAKED HUMANS IS THAT WHERE WE ARE HEADING. I AM WAY TOO OLD AND OUT OF SHAPE TO APPEAR IN PUBLIC NAKED.

[spiral]

Thanks for the links David they explain it well.

I just knew about it as 12 or so years ago Jon Chapman & other leading Rhino horn sculpture "experts" had what they thought was the oldest rhino horn carved cup known tested..... to date it... they were shocked to find out that instead of being c.500 years old or some such it was post nuclear age.

Which shows even the experts can get such things wrong. {Hence the problem.}

I understand your reaction Vandoo, but although some campaigners are emotional as you say, the likes of the NJ & NY mayors & Obama are probably not emotional about it.

There may be many factors behind the current US laws, but they could also involve international politics, so we cant discus that on this forum. {Send me a pm if you would like quick info bulletin on what I rightly or wrongly think may be a factor.}

Or maybe the worlds just turning & changing & views are changing? I don't know.

Selling captured illegal ivory to fund elephant care does seem morally bankrupt to me. Its like selling heroin & crack to fund an anti drugs measure or help druggies... It doesn't really add up when examined...{to my way of thinking anyway.}

Your last sentence is very true, I think... What's next indeed?

Hopefully something sensible & well thought out... but probably not..

spiral

[drac2k]

So VANDOO was right; there was a post WW2 master carver who was so good that he fooled all of the experts and as such he could have legally obtained his ivory, but based on our current laws, his work will be lost forever ?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by drac2k

So VANDOO was right; there was a post WW2 master carver who was so good that he fooled all of the experts and as such he could have legally obtained his ivory, but based on our current laws, his work will be lost forever ?

Interesting leap there...But I can see why you made it but no, it wasn't a masterpiece..

It was a very plain & naïve bowl/cup with a rough & weathered texture & deep patina, which is why it fooled the "experts" {I cant recall whether it had fake provenance as well.}

The perception being its So weathered, patined & simple it must be ancient!

But it wasn't..... it was just well faked modern crap of very little artistic value. {Ill try to get a photo of it tomorrow to illustrate. }

Spiral

[drac2k]

Thanks, it would be great to see an example...........just in case I'm ever in the market for one, I wouldn't want to buy a fake.

[spiral]

Interesting chaps, personally Vandoo I don't think the best carver of anything will be around today... because he will use electric power tools for speed...{time equals money.} so he may have an artistic eye but its not like the 1920 when it was all done with micro chisels where you needed to understand the medium, the texture & grain you were working in. With abrasive tools that is not so important.

Interesting point David re. a line in the sand.

For the law to be just. {whether people agree with it or not.} it needs accurate dates of what ok & what isn't.

You mention the Cities 1972 order, which actually banned the international trade in worked artefact dating pre. 1 june 1947.

That how the law is in used in most of Europe, although its only the last few years it been more heavily enforced.

Why that date was chosen I am not sure, {But it was just a month before the British gave up ruling India & Burma...}

But that date is more a less checkable as I understand, all bone ,,Ivory & horn on the planet had different radioactive isotopes than anything pre. August 1945 {Hiroshima.} it just took a couple of years to infiltrate every organic still alive via food. So all though there's a 2 year question of proof with that, it is more or less provable.

Any other arbitry date , comes down to opinion, of is it realy that old or not, not proven fact. Morally I think 1972 is fine but, how does one prove such? & what prevents it being faked or mistaken opinion?

That's why I think the 1947 date is a good year... it is provable more or less.

But sadly whatever any of our thoughts it probably wont make a lot of difference to the current & forthcoming new laws.

In England its also illegal to rework old ivory, because years ago people would claim all there modern ivory work came from that one old tusk or item they had a receipt for..... And human nature being what it is many tusks would go through on that one receipt. {No dna matching to receipts.} I think that was also part of the 1972 act but could be mistaken.

Ivory poaching was already seen as a problem by cities back then.

But I think its stepping into another degree now.

Already Illegal import or export of one piece of ivory without the legal paperwork in Europe {the eec.}is punishable by up to 7 years in jail now.

spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

But that date is more a less checkable as I understand, all bone ,,Ivory & horn on the planet had different radioactive isotopes than anything pre. August 1945 {Hiroshima.} it just took a couple of years to infiltrate every organic still alive via food. So all though there's a 2 year question of proof with that, it is more or less provable.

That's very interesting. Any links to more information on that?

[David]

OK, sorry, i was just being lazy. Here are a couple of interesting links on the testing Spiral wrote about.
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+/3237257.html

http://whyfiles.org/2013/poaching-problem/