Non european blade on Napoleonic saber

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 05:33 PM

Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example.
While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'.

I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

Oliver Pinchot · 18th August 2014, 06:54 PM

Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen.
I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2014, 01:20 AM

My comment pointing out a sabre from Zlatoust having a similar tipped and profiled blade which was ceremonial c.1821 was meant to note the presence of that feature there and at this time. I did not mean to imply this example was 'ceremonial', but to offer a comparison in the style.

If I recall correctly this clipped tip style was indeed quite well known in Solingen in the 18th century, and Seifert ("Schwert Degen Sabel",1962) captioned this in a panel of varying sword tip forms as a 'pandour point'.

As has been suggested, the makers in Solingen had known processes such as pattern welding for centuries, but did not largely produce this type of laminated blade typically, as far as I know. I think what is perplexing is the differences between pattern welding, various types of Damascus and wootz, the latter being the focus of many metallurgical experiments in this period (late 18th into 19th). As barely a lay metallurgist I would beg the indulgence of those better versed in this, and appreciate better explanations.

Those crescent moons certainly would offer compelling suggestion of Solingen, and recalling old traditions of multiple use of 'quality' imbuements of early tradition there. Earlier blades often had such marks or makers marks in multiples of three or up to five, presumably increasing the potential imbuement.

I had a deeply curved sabre of about this period c.1800, with distinctly pointed tip, but a profound pipeback, and which I believe was possibly laminated (it was darkly patinated) . This I believed to be British but a German blade.
In the period of 'innovation' when makers were striving for the most effective sword blades, many styles were considered from various cultural considerations, including the kilij, talwar and others. Many early British sabres have a pronounced yelman, and I believe the commanding officer of the 10th Hussars at Waterloo carried a pipeback, yelmaned sabre.

Jim McDougall · 20th August 2014, 06:47 AM

I just posted new information on this thread on the European forum.. please cross reference.

The information I added I believe adds compelling evidence this may indeed be a Solingen blade and supports the suggestions by Oliver and Ariel.

Thank you Roland for adding the additional detail on Zlatoust, indeed a fascinating possibility which may still be connected. It seems there were a number of makers working with watered steel blades at the time.

18th August 2014, 05:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example. While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'. I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

18th August 2014, 06:54 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen. I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.

19th August 2014, 01:20 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	My comment pointing out a sabre from Zlatoust having a similar tipped and profiled blade which was ceremonial c.1821 was meant to note the presence of that feature there and at this time. I did not mean to imply this example was 'ceremonial', but to offer a comparison in the style. If I recall correctly this clipped tip style was indeed quite well known in Solingen in the 18th century, and Seifert ("Schwert Degen Sabel",1962) captioned this in a panel of varying sword tip forms as a 'pandour point'. As has been suggested, the makers in Solingen had known processes such as pattern welding for centuries, but did not largely produce this type of laminated blade typically, as far as I know. I think what is perplexing is the differences between pattern welding, various types of Damascus and wootz, the latter being the focus of many metallurgical experiments in this period (late 18th into 19th). As barely a lay metallurgist I would beg the indulgence of those better versed in this, and appreciate better explanations. Those crescent moons certainly would offer compelling suggestion of Solingen, and recalling old traditions of multiple use of 'quality' imbuements of early tradition there. Earlier blades often had such marks or makers marks in multiples of three or up to five, presumably increasing the potential imbuement. I had a deeply curved sabre of about this period c.1800, with distinctly pointed tip, but a profound pipeback, and which I believe was possibly laminated (it was darkly patinated) . This I believed to be British but a German blade. In the period of 'innovation' when makers were striving for the most effective sword blades, many styles were considered from various cultural considerations, including the kilij, talwar and others. Many early British sabres have a pronounced yelman, and I believe the commanding officer of the 10th Hussars at Waterloo carried a pipeback, yelmaned sabre.

20th August 2014, 06:47 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I just posted new information on this thread on the European forum.. please cross reference. The information I added I believe adds compelling evidence this may indeed be a Solingen blade and supports the suggestions by Oliver and Ariel. Thank you Roland for adding the additional detail on Zlatoust, indeed a fascinating possibility which may still be connected. It seems there were a number of makers working with watered steel blades at the time.