Non european blade on Napoleonic saber

estcrh · 18th August 2014, 01:48 AM

I have never sen an Ottoman kilij that looked anything like this blade, either in the shape or the metal type.

trenchwarfare · 18th August 2014, 03:14 AM

That looks like the Peter Munich "moon". That would put it late 17, early 1800s. Very nice piece.

Battara · 18th August 2014, 04:10 AM

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 05:49 AM

This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject.

The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles.

I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity.

What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory.

A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821.

It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday.
The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century.

So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s

Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process?

Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking.
These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s.

So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

Robert · 18th August 2014, 06:49 AM

Because of the interesting questions this sword has raised I have sent a copy of this thread to the European Armoury as well.

Best,
Robert

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2014, 05:33 PM

Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example.
While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'.

I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

Oliver Pinchot · 18th August 2014, 06:54 PM

Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen.
I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.

Roland_M · 18th August 2014, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

Hello,
the well known blade smith even works for the Klingenmuseum (Blademuseum) in the famous blade city Solingen. This smith has made a lot of scientific experiments with medieval forging techniques, is very experienced and world wide known. If this is a german blade, he would have said it to me. French blades of this period are much more massive than 1.5 mm. A blade for usage in combat, not just a ceremonial piece.

18th August 2014, 01:48 AM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	I have never sen an Ottoman kilij that looked anything like this blade, either in the shape or the metal type.

18th August 2014, 03:14 AM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	That looks like the Peter Munich "moon". That would put it late 17, early 1800s. Very nice piece.

18th August 2014, 04:10 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

18th August 2014, 05:49 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject. The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles. I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity. What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory. A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821. It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday. The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century. So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process? Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking. These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s. So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

18th August 2014, 06:49 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Because of the interesting questions this sword has raised I have sent a copy of this thread to the European Armoury as well. Best, Robert

18th August 2014, 05:33 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent to move this to European as there the readers familiar with French and Russian as well as Napoleonic swords will have exposure to this intriguing example. While the idea of this being possibly Ottoman is interesting, as far as I have known no 'pipeback' form exists on their blades, and this was an entirely European innovation. As I noted earlier the only instance of similar feature was the 'T' back in mostly Central Asian forms. As for the stepped back tip, usually a false edge, this reference to the Ottoman yelman actually does not directly apply, though again a 'similarity'. I think the primary attraction to this having Eastern potential is of course the type of steel which clearly appears laminated. In that respect the presence of this example here is good as those well versed in metallurgy can respond to that aspect.

18th August 2014, 06:54 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	Ariel made an important point above, they certainly did make these blades in Solingen. I've done my best to tease out whatever that marking is on the blade, couldn't pull anything legible.