Non european blade on Napoleonic saber

[TVV]

This is not an Ottoman blade. Looks very European to me.

Teodor

[A.alnakkas]

Yes, a lovely European blade that was meant to have a good polish :-)

One of my Qatari friends uses a clauberg for Ardha, he was once cleaning it while etching a wootz blade. Some of the etchant dropped on the clauberg and a pattern like this one appeared. He polished it again, as I dont think those were meant to have such patterns exposed.

[Battara]

Could the blade originally be Russian in origin? They did do laminated steel. I am having difficulty seeing if the inscription remnants are Cyrillic or Arabic.

If Arabic, then this could indeed be an old Ottoman shamshir blade reshaped for French(?) use.

[ariel]

Solingen did damaskus.

[estcrh]

I have never sen an Ottoman kilij that looked anything like this blade, either in the shape or the metal type.

[trenchwarfare]

That looks like the Peter Munich "moon". That would put it late 17, early 1800s. Very nice piece.

[Battara]

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

[Jim McDougall]

This extremely attractive sabre is truly an anomaly, mostly due to this blade which appears of laminated or Damascus steel, for me in my limited understanding of metallurgy, a most perplexing subject.

The hilt and scabbard do correspond to the Napoleonic sabre form identified, which is indeed French. The piped back blade, with a stepped back of 'yelman' form (a feature which in degree recalls Turkish blade styles) seems to have been present somewhat during these times. These are invariably European, and seen on British and German blades, and this pipeback, raised tip form seems to have prevailed through the 19th century contemporary with other blade styles.

I agree that as far as I have known, the pipeback feature has never been used on Eastern blade forms, though the Central Asian 'T' section has similarity.

What I think is interesting is that after the Napoleonic campaigns a good number of French weapons were captured by the Russians. Many of these, including these type sabres, were copied and produced at the Zlatoust arms factory.

A ceremonial sabre from Zlatoust is seen with blade having remarkably similar profile with the pipeback and stepped tip (Wagner, 1967, p.455, #155) however this sword's blade is etched with military motif etc. and dates 1821.

It is interesting that the Russian's had for some time had the patterned steel known as bulat. In the early 1800s in France Jean Robert Breant had begun experiments with Damascus steel based much on English work by Faraday.
The Russian work with Damascus was with Petrel Petrovich Anosov but not until mid 19th century.

So the question would be, is this a French sabre as properly identified with a blade experimentally produced through Breant? though I believe most of his work was post Napoleonic 1820s

Or, could this have been a post Napoleonic production from Zlatoust, using perhaps bulat, or similar process?



Then there is the question of the curious five crescent faced moons. While Peter Munsten indeed was one German smith whose blades often had these moons on them, these were primarily 'talismanic ' motif which were used in variation by various smiths and the engravers they used. While the French, as the Germans, used these kinds of motif (not as familiar with Russians but they likely did as well) it seems odd on this type of blade with patterned steel. I am uncertain on the other marking.
These moons and other cosmological and symbolic motif were used through the 18th century, but their use seems to have ceased by early 1800s.

So there remain many questions on this sword, but these details I hope might lead to some productive research and ideas.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Battara

If this is a special damascus German steel blade, what throws me is the remnant inscription on the top left of the close ups.

Hello,
the well known blade smith even works for the Klingenmuseum (Blademuseum) in the famous blade city Solingen. This smith has made a lot of scientific experiments with medieval forging techniques, is very experienced and world wide known. If this is a german blade, he would have said it to me. French blades of this period are much more massive than 1.5 mm. A blade for usage in combat, not just a ceremonial piece.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Battara

Could the blade originally be Russian in origin? They did do laminated steel. I am having difficulty seeing if the inscription remnants are Cyrillic or Arabic.

If Arabic, then this could indeed be an old Ottoman shamshir blade reshaped for French(?) use.

If Russian, then from Zlatoust. Zlatoust weapon factory was founded in 1813. I have a book with the best blades from Zlatoust, see the picture I added. All blades from Zlatoust of this kind are very decorated. Ivan Bushuev is my favorite artist. On page 130 is a similar saber from Wilhelm Schaaf (1820), but it is not made of layered steel. The early blades from Zlatoust made of layered steel are not real, only a surface etching.
This is all I know.


The other book is from the German Blade Museum "damascened steel, history of a legend". Many different german blades made of damascened steel from 18-20th century. None of the blades is similar to this saber.