My Katar Collection

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Amazing!
In a post of some most interesting katars, and the developing discussion, why in the world this person with no interest in these and nothing to add to the discussion decide to intervene and insult a most valued senior member here? The poster, Mr Kelly, fully took in stride the responses from Jens.

Jim, of course Mr Kelly said nothing, if he did then he risked Jens doing exactly what he did when I mentioned his rude answer, which was to threaten to not post here anymore. How would you know that I have no interest in katars, do you think I am reading these posts for nothing, as for having nothing to add, I am reading the posts to learn, like many others who read the post here but do not "add" anything.

I belong to many different forums on many different subjects. People with superior knowledge go to these forums to share what they know, others go to learn. This post was just such a post, a person asked for some comments on an item he obviously knows little about. Jens pointed out something he obviously know a lot about but instead of explaining further he said this.

Ok have a look at this picture, and tell me that you dont see two peacocks.
I would recommend you to get books on the subject. I have six or seven meters of them, so there are enougt to choose from. A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum.Jens

Jens could have easily shown were the peacocks were located and he could have easily recommended some books for people to read on the subject of Indian decorations (which he later did). What does his ownership of "six or seven meters" of books have to do with this, and his snarky smart ass "A real/interested collector will buy books on the subject of interest, and not always rely on the answers given on a forum" was totally uncalled for.

Then because one person (me) dares to express an opinion on his answer he threatens to stop posting here, what kind of childish reply is that, so he is going to punish all forum members else because I made a comment. When someone who is an authority on any subject answers people who he knows do not have the same level of knowledge in that manner it is rude, that is my personal opinion on the subject, which comes from many years of discussing arms and armor on various forums with some very knowledgeable people who never answer a less knowledgeable forum member that way.

[Jim McDougall]

OK estcrh, now you have had your say, and on one thing you say I agree, we are all here to learn, together, and you note that you indeed have an interest in katars, or at least imply that you do. I have found over the years, that often friction in these threads in best remedied by focus on the topic rather than personalized criticism.
I would suggest we follow Andrew's well put suggestion and redirect to the topic at hand.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok let me end this discussion.

Thank you James and Jim for your kind posts. James please let me know how to get in toutch with you.

James you will find two peacocks at the top of the blade, and you will find two peacocks on the hand guard close to the top of the blade. It is by far easiest to see them on the gold decorated one.

Runjeet, the gold decorated katar has been decorated centuries later, maybe stripped of an earlier thick gold decoration - who knows?
I know there are four or five hilts shown in the Zebrowski book, but trhat is all, and I would not like members to buy it thinking they would get an Indian weapon book.

Jens

[spiral]

Amongst many more "practical" trades I worked as a teacher & counsellor for many years.

I found that if you just tell someone the answers... they learn nothing other than what you say. {if that.}

Help them to see, think & discover the answer to the the question's themselves {with gentle guidance where necessary.} & they grow & learn & will even notice & make other observations on other items.

Its the difference between reading a child a book & teaching them to read.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to James' katar, I think the dealers assessment was pretty accurate, though as always further research will reveal more detailed answers. I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.

In James' katar, these decorative 'peacocks' are perhaps relatively unrecognizable because they have been a bit more stylized, however they are in the same primary configuration and location that Jens showed in the example he posted.
In arms decoration and features, there are many elements which have become either highly stylized or often vestigially applied as progressively used on later examples or perhaps in varying workshops by different artisans. It is sometimes the case where these 'become' interpretive as with someone copying words in a foreign alphabet when they do not speak the language.

These kinds of nuances may often offer clues to the proper identification of a weapon as to period, or perhaps even regional classification , remembering of course that these speculations remain circumstancial in most cases.
These are most certainly similar guidelines in identification of firearms, and of course though firearms and edged weapons are essentially 'apples and oranges' functionally , their decorative motifs are often very related.

I have often found valuable clues to identifying motifs etc on many edged weapons in books which are specifically on firearms , case in point, Robert Elgood's, "Firearms of the Islamic World". As Jens mentioned, many clues turn up in books like 'Zebrowski', which is focused on material culture, not arms in particular.

Naturally, for more direct information, Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is probably the most reliable and comprehensive source for these kinds of katars as far as data. As all of us, as arms researchers are aware, these more direct references are the benchmarks, and often provide the clues and direction for in depth research in continuation.

So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think one of the key talking points, that of the peacocks, deserves more attention here.........So, to further continue, lets look again into the peacocks, now that we know that is what they are, and what do they mean, why are they there?

Everything you ever wanted to know about Indian peacocks, readable online.


"Peacock in Indian Art, Thought and Literature" by Krishna Lal, Abhinav Publications, 2006.

The National Bird Of India Is The Peacock. Majestic And Graceful, With A Beautiful From And Charming Colours, It Caught The Fancy Of The Indian Artisans From Early Times, Who Used It Profusely In Their Artistic Creations. From The Harappan Period To The Present Day, In Every Art Expression, The Peacock Is Beautifully Portrayed. It Has Been Depicted As A Sacred Bird; Mount Of Kartikeya, An Important Deity Of Hindu Pantheon And An Absent Lover In The Miniature Paintings.The Present Monograph Is An In Depth Study Of All Aspects Related To This Bird Its Habitat, History, Narration In Indian Mythology And Literature, Various Forms, Its Uses And Medicinal Properties Mentioned In Ancient Texts. 107 Carefully Selected Colourful Illustrations And 25 Sketches On The Subject Show Various Aspects Of Peacock In Art Forms.

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=wuotb7YyrigC